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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Personal problem,

61 replies

rightknockered · 20/08/2018 19:44

Not sure if this the right forum for this, although this is a problem related to how men perceive women and how we are socially conditioned to compete with each other from a young age. I basically think sisterhood is a myth, most women are competing with each other and can never truly be friends. That has been my experience and I'm tired of it. I don't know how to deal with it and I'm tired of making effort with people. I feel defeated. I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want this for my daughter and I don't want to have to teach her how to manoeuvre around it all. I would go into more detail but I have done so before and had myself torn apart on mumsnet. I'm just hope this is a safe space to chat about it.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 20/08/2018 19:47

It's not been my experience so I can't give you any direct advice. I'm not sure I agree that what you've experienced is universal and commonplace. I'm sorry you've had those experiences with other women.

IrenetheQuaint · 20/08/2018 19:49

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, OP. I've known some of that sort of behaviour but also lots of lovely supportive relationships with other women.

It's hard to know what to say - what are you looking for?

Etino · 20/08/2018 19:55

The best thing you can do for your dd is in supporting her to have high self esteem and believe that she can achieve. If you diss the sisterhood and criticise other women you’re doing the opposite. Love her, encourage her to love herself and big up other women.

thebewilderness · 20/08/2018 19:55

I don't want this for my daughter and I don't want to have to teach her how to manoeuvre around it all.

Is there some particular reason you do not want to teach your daughter "how to manoeuvre around it all"? That is part of our responsibility as parents.

Gronky · 20/08/2018 19:56

I always cringe when I hear women say that they prefer the social company of men. It happens entirely too often.

Clairetree1 · 20/08/2018 19:58

I always cringe when I hear women say that they prefer the social company of men. It happens entirely too often

why does it make you cringe? why does it happen to often?

surely its a good thing for men and women to be friends and in communication with each other

Clairetree1 · 20/08/2018 19:59

I have some very close friends who are male, as well as having female friends

I'm sorry you don't think women can be friends, OP, but I think you have just been unlucky. I think most women have some close female friends.

Gronky · 20/08/2018 20:00

surely its a good thing for men and women to be friends and in communication with each other

It is good for friendship and communication because it helps combat objectification. It's them preferring that makes me cringe.

Clairetree1 · 20/08/2018 20:02

o ok.

Gncq · 20/08/2018 20:02

Men behave very differently when no females are present.

witchmountain · 20/08/2018 20:14

this is a problem related to how men perceive women and how we are socially conditioned to compete with each other from a young age

So do you mean specifically competing for male attention? Or more generally?

The thing is, competing only happens if you join in. I can think of some women I've felt competitive with and it's been related to the situation and feeling like I've got something to prove. I can also think of situations where I have felt as though another woman feels threatened by me and is kind of competing, but where I haven't myself felt competitive because I've felt confident with my own position.

So the need to compete has really depended on how I feel about myself in the situation, if that makes sense?

Those have all been professional situations though and haven't involved competing for specifically male attention or approval.

I think there have been similar situations where I might have felt competitive with a man but there's been less of an edge to it, perhaps because it's felt like a less direct comparison?

Susie Orbach and Luise Eichenbaum have written some interesting stuff about female relationships which you might find useful.

Oldstyle · 20/08/2018 20:17

My immediate response was that my own experience has been entirely different from yours OP. Then when I thought more about it I realised that there was probably a lot of competition (for men's approbation and attention primarily) when I was a teenager and in my early 20s and that it actually took some time before I really started to appreciate and prefer the society of women. Now all my closest friends are female and I find a real affirmative joy in female company. Men are lovely in small doses but women give me emotional and practical support and actually take an interest in me, they listen!
I'm sorry that you haven't had a similar experience but maybe if you simply encourage your daughter to be confident in herself and able to voice her opinions and stay true to who she is, she will attract similar souls, male or female. And will also be able to ignore those who undermine her. My kids (2f, 1m) and teenage granddaughter have great relationships with m&f peers but their strongest longterm friendships in all cases are with females.

Italiangreyhound · 20/08/2018 20:44

I've not experienced women as competitors after I left school.

Maybe find women you share a interest with like s sport, art of hobby.

Good luck.

Rebecca36 · 20/08/2018 21:05

It's sad you feel as you do. I'm pretty sure I've never been in competition with another woman, nor has any other woman felt competitive with me.
There are some jealous types though. That's life I'm afraid. Men too can be like that.

Just step out of that competitive box and live your life independently. You'll find people of like mind will want to be companionable.

Turph · 21/08/2018 00:53

rightknockered it can feel like that sometimes, certainly when I was young I had no female friends and plenty of male friends. I'm a butch lesbian so it might be different for you. I've certainly seen plenty of people trapped in social circles of horrible people; it might just be that you need to move to a new area and start again. I've got good female friends now and have done since I became an adult, most of them are straight too but we still have plenty in common. Don't be discouraged by what you have experienced up until now. Once you surround yourself with better people you will notice the difference. It's not the easiest thing to do, maybe try a new job or go back to studying to meet nicer people.
Lastly, I have met men who describe the same problems as you have, and they have invariably moved away from those people. I don't think it's just a female thing, there are toxic groups everywhere.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 02:06

I always wanted a sister and for me women friends have always brought that sense of sisterhood. Sure, you get some women who are all about the men, but I've found my women friends immensely loyal, all in all. There's empathy on so many issues - simple biological stuff and when there's a real drama - the chips are down and you've been beaten up or you've just found out your DH is dying - it's your women friends who'll scoop you up and do practical things while listening to you pour it all out.

Same with loads of crises. During my wild wild teens what kept me safe was our tight knit little bunch of friends. We'd do anything for each other.

And I love my physical ease with other women. It's more than the absence of the male gaze. It's the sense of complete safety. I have a friend who shares my bed when she comes to stay (I don't have a spare room). We started doing it years back. We chat in the dark sometimes and I really like it. Mind you it probably helps that we're both fairly quiet sleepers, who don't thrash about.

You may have heard the term "cool girl". It's used to describe a certain sort of bitchy, misogynist woman. Cool girls aren't boring like those other girls. They're different.

Here's an extract from a <a class="break-all" href="https://m-huffpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5873d393e4b0a5e600a78d4e/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">HuffPo article

We all know the ‘cool girl,’ the one who goes out of her way to say that she gets along with men better than women. The one who considers herself “one of the guys.” She eschews “drama” but has no problem joining men in criticizing other women, individually and as a gender. Allegations of violence against women? She’ll be the first to point out that some women lie. The cool girl “gets it.” She doesn’t complain about casual misogyny or sexist jokes from the men in her life. She’s not “uptight.” She’d rather die than be called a “feminist.”

Ring any bells? If you feel you have to compete with other women you'll attract women who also want to compete. If you set out in a spirit of cooperation and kindness you'll find a different type of woman.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 02:09

God, that's an essay! Sorry. Grin Insomnia, eh? I'm on steroids and they make me restless.

thebewilderness · 21/08/2018 02:23

I enjoyed reading it, Prawn.
I had no sisters either.
The friendship and support of women has been a constant joy in my life.

rightknockered · 21/08/2018 02:46

I don't consider myself a "cool girl" and don't have close male friends and certainly don't seek out the company of men. In fact, I'm mostly afraid of men. I have this idea, from life experience and much disappointment, that they try to befriend me because they want sex.
I don't set myself up to compete with women, I don't dress to attract sexual attention and I find myself altering the way I dress and behave so that women don't hate me and men don't think I'm sexually available. But then I get angry with myself. Why do I do this. By altering how I dress, I'm acknowledging and accepting being in a competitive game. It's ridiculous. I feel lost in it all. I want to step aside but I can't. The way I look, my body, everything, places me in that position. As soon as I meet another woman, I can see the withering look in her eyes, looking me up and down, making her mind up about me. It puts me on the defensive so I don't make eye contact hence I look standoffish to boot. If men look at me, and they do - in situations that I don't want the attention, women blame me. Because it's always the woman's fault right?
Even in some of the replies on here I can see it. The reference to the type of woman who is always friends with men etc etc. I'm not friends with men. But I'm tired of being judged on what I look like. And I can't escape my appearance.

OP posts:
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 21/08/2018 03:23

All the best bosses I've ever had were women and throughout my life I've enjoyed my (real and created) sisters and my wider female relatives.

Thing is, I learned this from my mother and my family. I learned that being with women was a place of comfort and safety and bawdy jokes and tears and practical advice about living in a female body.

So your daughter will learn what you teach her about female friendships. If you dislike and distrust other women, she will too. You are her example for being part of the sisterhood.

In my experience, women compete against each other in an unhealthy way (competition itself isn't unhealthy), when the only reward is male approval. When it's all about fitting into some model of hyper-femininity, being pretty enough, thin enough, well-groomed enough in order to attract the male gaze, then female relationships can become toxic.

Of course it's important to build your daughter's self-esteem, but self-esteem based in authentic achievement. An activity which depends on skills other than how she looks. Preferably an activity which requires her to get sweaty and dirty and break a nail, something she is good at and enjoys.

And, although this seems harsh, you need to examine your own approach. Are you really critical of other women? How they look? What they wear? How they behave?

Can you start noticing those comments and transform them into something kind? Instead of thinking, "I wouldn't be seen dead in that dress", think "she has nice posture", or whatever. Try looking at other women in a compassionate way, notice nice things about them.

If you live in a milieu where women compete against each other in an unpleasant way, disengage. if that kind of competition makes you unhappy, stop doing it.

We are all self-conscious and insecure and anxious. We're also good at pretending we're not - so when someone reaches out to us with empathy it is very powerful.

Look around at the women you know - pick one who has some characteristic you like; she tells good jokes, is kind to dogs, whatever. Tell her that, "I really admire your way with dogs Evelyn, where did you learn about them?" Pick attributes which are not about appearance, but real things about that one woman. And listen to their response, really listen, care about what they're telling you.

People respond to kindness - if you practise kindness and empathy you'll get it back. You'll probably get some knock-backs, but that's ok, relationships mean taking a risk.

You need to show your daughter the joy of female friendships.

I am naturally solitary and I was a painfully shy teenager, until one day it occurred to me that without a bit of effort, I might go through life without friends. So I started with small steps and tried to be kind and pay attention - so the lessons above are ones I've learned. I'm not a social butterfly, but I do have a small group of good female friends and occasionally find myself making new friends even.

I think the pay-off might be that if you're kinder to other women, you'll be kinder to yourself.

You clearly love your daughter, so there's a female friend already. You just need to widen the circle a bit.

Also, what Pawn said.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 03:26

That's kind, Bewilderness. I came back to say that of course it's not always about what your women friends can do for you, but what you can do for your friends. There's quite a large group of women I think of as 3 o'clock in the morning friends, i.e I'd be there for them whenever they needed me. My friends have far fewer dramas now I'm so much older, but my commitment hasn't changed

I worked as a barmaid in a very alternative, riotous pub for several years in my youth. It was packed with fun and the odd drama. That's where I learned the importance of women only spaces and how often women display sisterhood. Every weekend around closing time there'd be some poor woman sobbing in the ladies with her friends in attendance, and often a woman taking refuge from an angry or jealous partner. And of course there was often someone trying to sort out their clothes after a leak or even a miscarriage. Often other women would help, lending a cardigan to tie around the hips, telling the partner to fuck off. It was part of my job to keep men out of the ladies.and it was really obvious how important it was. Of course in those days everyone agreed that only dodgy men hung around the ladies.

That's not a typical situation. I don't think women are usually so open in the ladies. The clientele of the pub I'm talking about were very unconventional and by closing time most of them were pissed. But it kinda set a standard for me - women as allies to each other.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 21/08/2018 03:34

Having read to OP's response after I posted my treatise, it's your own insecurity giving you grief. People don't pay so much attention to us as we think. That withering look you're seeing is as likely to be, "shit, did I send that email I promised?", rather than, "it's all OP's fault".

A stranger knows nothing about you other than what you show them. Ignore the wither, smile and say something nice - be nice.

Be nice to yourself. Wear clothes which make you feel wonderful and look fabulous. Volunteer to do something useful so people will be grateful just for your presence.

And maybe if this overwhelming suspicion of the motives of other people are making you so unhappy, seek some counselling?

You sound so sad, it would be nice for you to have friends who could admire your beauty and feed you cake and make you laugh.

MrsToddsShortcut · 21/08/2018 03:54

OP, I don't think that the other posters are suggesting that you are a Cool Girl, or that you are Uber competitive with other women, just that you might recognise those types from the women around you.

I'm so sorry that you don't have that feeling of sisterhood. I'm incredibly lucky in that I have two friends that I've had since adolescence who are still around - not geographically necessarily, but we've stuck in eachother's lives and support each other.

It is possible to find what you seek - I promise. I have an amazing network of women that I met through women's groups online and they have taught me so much about our shared experiences as women.

Mumsnet FWR board is also a great place to experience women who share those qualities. I can't promise that real life friendship will come from it, but we all understand the difficulty that can come from navigating life in a world shaped by men, for men, where women not only take second place but often internalise misogyny.

The more you see it, the more confident you will be in replicating it and the more likely you are to find it in your real lifeSmile

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/08/2018 04:46

Sorry, Rightknockered, I wasn't suggesting that you were a cool girl, rather that they seemed to be the sort you're encountering. If other women treat you like competition of course you're going to distrust them.

I was trying to explain that, yes, they definitely exist but they're not that common. Sisterly women are far more common ime.

I think it depends on various factors. Certain industries - ones in which youth and looks are very important for example - will generate more competition between women, and some types of looks seem to trigger competitive behaviour in the sort of women who react like that.

I had a very pretty friend. She was also tall, slim and very shapely, but with ginormous self-supporting norks. She was always getting bitchy remarks from other women and it did get her down. She was shy and sensitive. The sort of woman who did it were shallow and insecure. All I could do as her friend was to point out that what they said had nothing to do with her real self and to let it slide off her, to rise above. But I do know that some women get more grief than the rest of us.

Basically if men find you very sexy there will always be women who are insecure, who don't trust their DP, who will treat you as the enemy. Perhaps that's part of what you're experiencing?

But women aren't always motivated by envy. When I got glandular fever. lost those few extra kilos and was suddenly very svelte, when I came home from university my friends were all madly impressed. I felt celebrated - and I was also teased. It doesn't have to be a struggle.

pallisers · 21/08/2018 04:46

lthough this is a problem related to how men perceive women and how we are socially conditioned to compete with each other from a young age. I basically think sisterhood is a myth, most women are competing with each other and can never truly be friends. That has been my experience and I'm tired of it.

I am in my early 50s and this honestly isn't my experience of life at all. The best thing about going to university as far as I am concerned wasn't the men I dated etc - and I liked most of them and had a lot of fun and still am friends with some - but the women I became fast friends with for life. I am very happily married for many years to a lovely man but the friendships I have had with women (and my best friend was single until she was 40 so we were a married/kids with a single/no kids friendship for years) have given me so much joy, fun, laughter, support. When my female friends and I started off as young lawyers, I'm not sure we would have survived the first few years without our weekly lunches to let it all out. No competition - just support.

My mother (would be 90 if alive) had female friends in various groups - school/cousins/work/meditation all her life - her 80th birthday party was wonderful. I never saw any of them competing with each other.

I have lived in different countries and cultures. I have always found women to be the most interesting, supportive friends. never felt that competitive thing and I was pretty and academic most of my life.

My daughters are 16 and 18. Their female friends are the most important relationships they have at this stage of their lives.

OP, I'm sorry you haven't had these kinds of sustaining, nurturing, very interesting friendships with women that many of us have. I think there is a knack to friendship and mostly I think that knack is being ok with being a little vulnerable.

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