Personal problem,

[rightknockered]

Not sure if this the right forum for this, although this is a problem related to how men perceive women and how we are socially conditioned to compete with each other from a young age. I basically think sisterhood is a myth, most women are competing with each other and can never truly be friends. That has been my experience and I'm tired of it. I don't know how to deal with it and I'm tired of making effort with people. I feel defeated. I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want this for my daughter and I don't want to have to teach her how to manoeuvre around it all. I would go into more detail but I have done so before and had myself torn apart on mumsnet. I'm just hope this is a safe space to chat about it.

I understand where the OP is coming from. There have been many studies undertaken which demonstrate that women do not collaborate as well as men, and that a man/woman combo is actually likely to be more productive than a woman/woman collaboration. Women also overwhelming vote in favour of having a male boss (actually both sexes do, but women display a stronger preference).

According to the most recent study, Americans show no particular preference.

news.gallup.com/poll/222425/americans-no-longer-prefer-male-boss-female-boss.aspx

I think it's more about insecurities than competitiveness...when someone feels happy and secure within themselves, there is no need for competitiveness. Cliques form too...some always seem to be popular, you get the accepted hanger-ons and then the outcasts.

I get it a little OP.
I've never had female freinds like others describe that are so supportive and such a joy.
And I'm not a "cool girl" - I don't have male friends either, although I'm not afraid of them or trying to avoid their gaze like OP.
The reason I wear long trousers, and never show my legs, and feel bad about my body (tiny boobs) is nothing to do with men, it's the judgement from other women I've always found hard.
I've always felt more judged by women than men. Men mostly ignore me. I'm pretty sure I've never been ugly, but they just do.
Most of the drama in my life has been caused by women - school mums, bitchy friends of friends, etc.
I've never felt part of the sisterhood.

There are around 4 billion women in the world. Nobody is suggesting that we all join hands and sing kumbaya. Nor is anyone suggesting that there is some mystical bond of sisterhood between all women.

But it's equally hard to believe that amongst those 4 billion women, there are none the OP or deydododatdodontdeydo could make common cause with.

Talk of the sisterhood and the idea that I am anyone's sister , other than my brother's, and some of the ott posts on FWR about how utterly fantastic and fabulous women are make my toes curl.

Equally however my experience has not been one of bitchy competiveness either - both stances seem to me anyway, improbable.

What is it about the way you look and your body that makes other women give you withering looks, OP? I don't really understand.

I'll add, it's not just about male approval - all the snide comments about parenting, disapproving looks or comments when one of my children was having a tantrum, or crying in public, or not doing what they were told has always been from women.
I'm happy other people have supportive "3am friends" they can rely on.
When I was younger, everyone I relied on let me down. If I confided in a freind about a personal matter, it always got out the wider circle of friends, so I learnt not to confide in my female friends.

What is it about the way you look and your body that makes other women give you withering looks, OP? I don't really understand

This seems incredible - it is the flip side of the "male gaze" posts on FWR many of which I find incredible too.

Everyone makes, and keeps, friendships in their own way. I find that those people, of both sexes, who struggle to find friendships, most find the cause of that inside themselves. In order to habe friends, one has to be a friend. Its as simple as that.

Habe? Have, I meant.

ps "sisterhood" makes me boke. My sisters are horrible. My friends, they're my chosen family.

It's sad to read people saying the idea of sisterhood makes them boak.

When word spread that DH had cancer the response we got from women friends was overwhelming. I really wouldn't have believed the extent of it. OK, he'd been a SAHD so they all knew him from the playground but the extent of the support we got was humbling and a huge help. Far more than anyone would expect - an outpouring of concern. Women are more often able to be in touch with their feelings I guess.

However I was also badly hurt by women in this same situation -: some of the mothers who were so kind when DH was dying later turned round and judged me as a single parent.

Is this a not very thinly veiled "women are awful" post? On FWR? Or have I misunderstood?

I found middle class mothers at the school gate, when my children were little, to be immensely competitive in material terms: boasting about their house extensions, range cookers, houses in Tuscany etc. I have not found this with my female colleagues, and suspect the school gate mums- all of whom stayed at home and had husbands who worked long hours in high status jobs, to fund the extensions etc- were miserable and bored. Much of what is referred to as female competitiveness surely springs from our social and economic position, and a need to prove ourselves.

Is this a not very thinly veiled "women are awful" post? On FWR? Or have I misunderstood?

I suppose it's because there are so many "aren't women amazing, we should all live on an island together somewhere" type posts, those of us who have never felt this connection feel like we're missing out.
I don't think it's to slander all women at all.

Okay well maybe not a great topic for the FWR board then.

So people who don't feel like part of the sisterhood don't deserve support? Or empathy, or to simply know there are other women out there like us?

What does your post have to do with feminism? Surely there are other boards you can get your support from. How is the fact that you find women bitchy and competitive a women’s rights issue?

I’m sorry to hear you are so unhappy OP. Like others, i have not experienced this competitiveness ,except on a few occasions.

Can you say more about what you feel is wrong with your appearance and why you think all women look at you strangely ? Is it only women you feel like this about or does it happen with children and men as well?

Just seems an odd post to put on a feminism board. Very odd indeed.

I think it's a bit odd that people want to relocate any thread as soon as it cast the slightest negative shadow on womenkind - like that recent one about the girl who was beaten to death by a girl gang (would've been a different story if the attackers had been male!).

I do think some women don't act in 'sisterhood' and they aren't just the 'handmaidens' we constantly hear about. I think it's an interesting discussion to have.

Sorry Prawn

I wish I felt a bit more positive about the word "sister" but for me personally it has truly negative connotations. Friends on the other hand....my friends have done everything and mean everything to me. I'm sure, for other people, this is an example of real "sisterhood" but alas, sisterhood for me means abuse (verbal and emotional) and stress. I disassociate from the word because it causes me distress. But other people don't have my memories and gut reactions and therefore I'm glad that others DO have wonderful associations with it. Long may it continue. Lets face it, it's my genetic sisters I have issues with, not my friend-sisters. My friend-sisters are my world.