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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BACP Gender,Sexual, and Relationship Diversity by Dr Meg-John Barker

252 replies

R0wantrees · 17/08/2018 22:56

Good Practice Guide, British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy
(extract)
2.6 Gender identity: woman
Definitions
"Whether trans or cisgender, intersex or not, many people identify as
women. However, what this means varies a great deal depending on their other intersecting attributes. It is important not to assume, for example, that being a woman necessarily involves being able to bear children, or having XX sex chromosomes, or breasts. Being a woman in a British cultural context often means adhering to social norms of femininity, such as being nurturing, caring, social, emotional, vulnerable, and concerned with appearance.
However, of course, not all women adhere to all these things. For example some neurodiverse women (on the autistic/aspergic/ADHD spectrums) may struggle to express emotions, or with social situations. In some northern working-class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression. As always an intersectional understanding is vital and we need to be mindful that what is culturally regarded as the epitome of femininity is white, middle class, youthful, non-disabled, heterosexual, cisgender, and thin. This strongly shapes all women’s experiences of womanhood.
Common concerns
While gender may not always be relevant to a woman’s presenting issues, mental health struggles are often gendered. Women have such high rates of body image issues that this has been labelled ‘normative discontent’.
It has been related to both narrow ideals of feminine beauty, and the
contradictory pressures on women today to conform to stereotypical
femininity and to be independent and successful. Food and body
can represent one potential area of control in an uncontrollable and
contradictory world. Women are more likely than men to be diagnosed with depression, anxiety, and many other emotional disorders. This has been linked to the way women’s identities are often bound up with other people, for example, rates of depression often peak for mothers when children leave home. Therapy with women may well involve exploring their relationships with others, and with being desirable, pleasing and/or approved of" (continues)

My understanding is that the majority of counsellors in the UK are BACP accredited. There is a great deal in this document to consider.

The author is the partner of Edward Lord who identifies as non-binary see recent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

BACP Gender,Sexual, and Relationship Diversity by Dr Meg-John Barker
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
R0wantrees · 29/08/2018 13:13

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3349661-Fetishism-vs-pushing-of-boundaries-Vs-safety
from guide
3.7 Sexual practice: BDSM, kink, and beyond
Definitions
BDSM stands for Bondage and Discipline, Dominance and Submission, Sadism and Masochism. The umbrella terms ‘BDSM’, ‘kink’, and sometimes ‘fetish’ or ‘leather’, encompass a range of consensual erotic, sexual, or sensual practices which may involve heightened sensations or pain, and/or the exchange of power, and/or some form of restraint or role-play, and/ or watching other people (exhibitionism) or being watched (voyeurism).
Role-playing such as being an animal (furry) or being older or younger (age-play) are also common, although not always considered part of kink/ BDSM. Some people regard their BDSM status or kink to be an identity, e.g. being a top or dom/me (dominant), a bottom or sub (submissive), a switch (who tops and bottoms), or a kinkster or sadomasochist. Others regard it as a practice they engage in which is not an identity. Some may keep their kink in the realm of fantasy and/or erotic reading/writing/viewing, while some engage in kink practices in solo sex and/or with others.
The extent of BDSM is hard to estimate, but the massive popularity of the Fifty Shades books and films suggest that some interest in kink is incredibly common. Around two thirds of people have fantasies about bondage, and other common interests like spanking and roleplay are not far behind (Renaud and Byers, 1999). Over a third of people sometimes use masks, blindfolds and bondage equipment during sex (Durex, 2005).
Common concerns
While a person’s kink identities or practices will often be irrelevant
to their presenting issues, they may well be nervous about working
with a therapist – or revealing these interests – due to the continued
pathologisation of BDSM (1.6), and the likelihood of having bad prior
experiences with therapists (Kolmes, Stock and Moser, 2006; Kelsey et al., 2013). Kinky people are no more psychologically unhealthy than anyone else. Indeed the most recent research suggests that they may even be more healthy (Wismeijer and Assen, 2013)" (continues)

OP posts:
WTFagain · 29/08/2018 15:28

The first section of the quoted text is, technically, not a definition. It has no contours, and includes nothing that specifies ‘woman’ as a specific ontology. It can be compared to the colonial concept of ‘virgin territory’ or the dichotomous definition of ‘nature’ as ‘everything that isn’t culture’. It turns ‘woman’ into an undefined, ‘empty’ territory in which (male) adventurers can pitch their tent and go for a hike. A benign, dumb wilderness to bring under (male) definition and dominion.

ThatDoctorEM · 29/08/2018 15:46

I have posted this on twitter but it really stood out to me that on p.39 Dr. Barker quoted Gayle Rubin. Rubin is a giant of Queer Theory but is also an advocate for paedophilia as a legitimate sexual orientation. She supports the idea of queering generational boundaries. I have copied a mini-thread in which I did ages ago in case it is of interest.

See G. S. Rubin, ‘Thinking Sex: Notes for a Radical Theory of the Politics of Sexuality’, in: R. G. Parker & P. Aggleton (eds.), Culture, Society and Sexuality: A Reader (Psychology Press, 1999).
Access to Rubin’s chapter, ‘Thinking Sex’, is here: sites.middlebury.edu/sexandsociety/files/2015/01/Rubin-Thinking-Sex.pdf
The cultural anthropologist Gayle Rubin is thought of as one of the core theorists of Queer Theory.
She argued that ‘It is impossible to think with any clarity about the politics of race or gender as long as these are thought of as biological entities rather than as social constructs’. p.149
Along with Fouccault, Rubin takes a constructivist approach to sexuality. The constructivist approach has been useful in radical feminist critiques of heteronormative sexuality – the notion that normal sex is when the man is dominant and the woman submissive.

It has also successfully underpinned critiques of heterosexual relationships being used as the standard and by which gay and lesbian relationships have been pushed to the deviant margins. So there is a lot of good in a constructivist approach.
Nevertheless, its use in queer theory has led to justifications for paedophilia. It is to Rubin’s ‘Thinking Sex’ which I now turn.
Rubin posits that ‘The notion that sex per se is harmful to the young has been chiselled into extensive social and legal structures designed to insulate minors from sexual knowledge and experience’. p. 144.
Throughout this essay Rubin ties commercialised sex – the prostitution of women – to homosexuality as one and the same. I think it is insulting that this academic considers a harmful practice, the renting of sexual organs and coercion of sex with money, as in line with homosexuality, a natural, sexual orientation.
‘For over a century, no tactic for stirring up erotic hysteria has been as reliable as the appeal to protect children. The current wave of erotic terror has reached deepest into those areas bordered in some way, if only symbolically, by the sexuality of the young.’ p. 146.
Rubin argues for child pornography:
‘Although the Supreme Court has also ruled that it is a constitutional right to possess obscene material for private use, some child pornography laws prohibit even the private possession of any sexual material involving minors’. p.146.
According to Rubin, resitricting child pornography is actually an attack on sexual civil liberties.
‘The laws produced by the child porn panic are ill-conceived and misdirected. They represent far reaching alterations in the regulation of sexual behaviour and abrogate important sexual civil liberties’ p, 146.
Rubin supports NAMBLA:
‘But hardly anyone noticed as they swept through Congress and state legislatures. With the exception of the North American Man/Boy Love Association and American Civil Liberties Union, no one raised a peep of protest’ p.146
Rubin uses the case of Jacqueline Livingstone who was an assistant professor of photography at Cornell.
‘Livingston was fired in 1978 after exhibiting pictures of male nudes which included photographs of her seven-year-old son masturbating’ pp. 146 – 147
Across history abuse has been justified in the name of art. What is the artistic merit of a seven year old child masturbating and what distinguishes these images from abuse?
If one thought Rubin was just defending a supposedly ‘persecuted artist’ then consider her next statement that ‘It is easy to see someone like Livingston as a victim of the child porn wars. It is harder for most people to sympathize with actual boy-lovers’ p.147.
‘boy-lovers’ also known as adult men who sexually abuse male children.
Rubin describes adult men who sexually abuse male children as having an ‘erotic orientation’ which must be defended p.147.
Rubin claims that because these adult men sexually abuse boys ‘the police have feasted on them’ and that in ‘twenty years or… it will be much easier to show that these men have been the victims of a savage and undeserved witch hunt. A lot of people will be embarrassed by their collaboration with this persecution’. p. 147
Rubin consistently compares objection to paedophilia with objection to homosexuality. She argues that child protection laws are akin to anti-gay legislation.
This constant linking of homosexuality with child abuse like they are one and the same is something I find disgusting about this scholar’s work.
Rubin considers ‘The most despised sexual castes currently include transsexuals, transvestites, fetishists, sadomasochists, sex workers such as prostitutes and porn models, and the lowliest of all, those whose eroticism transgresses generational boundaries’ p.151
‘Transgresses generational boundaries’ – is that an academic way of obscuring the term paedophile?

Rubin complains that, at the time of writing, in the DSM-III ‘fetishism, sadism, masochism, transsexuality, transvestism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and paedophilia are quite firmly entrenched as psychological malfunctions’. p. 151
Rubin describes feminism as a system of sexual judgment p.152
Rubin writes out the Johns/buyers in her account of prostituted women. p.156
‘Sexualities keep marching out of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and on to the pages of social history. At present, several other groups are trying to emulate the successes of homosexuals. Bisexuals, sadomasochists, individuals who prefer cross-generational encounters [Paedophiles], transsexuals, and transvestites are all in various states of community formation and identity acquisition’ p.156

BACP Gender,Sexual, and Relationship Diversity by Dr Meg-John Barker
carceralfeminist · 29/08/2018 16:14

I feel like vomiting now.

LangCleg · 29/08/2018 16:21

The most despised sexual castes currently include transsexuals, transvestites, fetishists, sadomasochists, sex workers such as prostitutes and porn models, and the lowliest of all, those whose eroticism transgresses generational boundaries

WTAF? Generational boundaries?

ThatDoctorEM · 29/08/2018 16:39

Sorry Caceral

'Transgress generational boundaries' - it is awful, this rebranding of child sexual abuse. Gayle Rubin's former partner and another core Queer Theorist is Pat Califia, someone else I have worked on in terms of CSE and Queer Theory. I have posted the thread I did below. My intention is to show how that Rubin reference is really significant, the BACP is endorsing her arguments no?

I thought it may be worthwhile to contextualise Rubin’s thought.

Rubin was in a sadomasochistic relationship with another queer theorist – and yes, you guessed it – paedophile apologist Pat Califia.

Pronoun wise Pat has now transed to Patrick. Here is Califia’s twitter profile, he describes his work as a trans therapist.

P. Califia, ‘Feminism, Pedophilia, and Children's Rights’, Paidika (1991), & in The Culture of Radical Sex (1994)
The Califia text is available here, n.b. NSFW it is hosted on a website which is and contains pro-paedophilia literature. www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm

Califia sets the tone for the article from the off, explaining that ‘In 1980 I published a two-part article in The Advocate, critiquing American age-of-consent laws’. When QT converges with legislation this seems reasonable =(.
Califia describes how she/he created an Overton window shift. Califia claims that ‘While extremely controversial, the articles did hit print and spur discussion about the sexuality of young people, intimate relationships between men and boys, and the dangerous implications of banning all erotic images of minors’.
Right there – men and boys – also understood as adults and children.

Califia was not only aware but excited that her/his work would be published in a European journal for paedophilia – Paidika: this piece ‘will be translated into Dutch and published abroad in a special issue of Paidika on women and pedophilia. I support Paidika and enjoy working with the editors of this special issue’.
There you go Califia publically stated that she/he supported paedophiles.

At least Califia, unlike Rubin, admitted that most gay and lesbian people do not want to have anything to do with child sexual abuse, here it is: ‘I also know I probably could not get anything on this topic published today in the American gay and lesbian press’. Hurrah!
Commenting on part of the reason feminists abhor Califia, she/he laments that ‘Doc and Fluff, my recent science-fiction novel, has been banned by some women's bookstores because it supposedly depicts a cross-generational lesbian relationship, and I've been attacked as “an advocate of child molestation” in the feminist press’.
Notice that term again ‘cross-generational’. What’s that I hear… alarm bells.

Califia argues that ‘The American government's campaign against the sexual rights of young people has been so successful that most gay men, lesbians, and feminists are convinced that the movement to repeal age-of-consent laws was nothing more than an attempt to guarantee rapacious adults the right to vulnerable child victims’.
Yes. Correct. However, the American government didn’t convince this feminist the harmful actions of paedophiles did.

Califia claims that in its refusal to accept NAMBLA in its movement ‘The adult gay community here has cut off its next generation’. Nope, it is protecting children from sexual abuse.
Califia posits that ‘I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out’. Age of coming out shouldn’t open one up to sexual abuse. Notice how Califia doesn’t critique that gay and lesbians have to come out because heterosexual is culturally held as ‘normal’.
Califia argues that child sexual abuse is desired by the child claiming that ‘Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex’.
‘It's impossible to sum up thirty years of American politics in a short article. But a sketchy chronicle of this background is important for anyone who wants to understand the suspicion and hatred that most American gay-rights activists and lesbian-feminists display toward pedophilia’.
Finally, a queer theorist has admitted that paedophilia is unwelcome in the rainbow. Oh no, does that entail that I agree with Califia about something? Oh, it didn’t last long, Califia describes the feminist movement of the 1970s as a ‘social purity movement’. No, no, no.

Califia laments that her/his feminist critics have characterised her/him ‘as [a] pervert and advocate of rape, battery, and child abuse’. Well, if you don’t wish to be characterised as such don’t advocate it.

Califia argues that ‘The panic over child pornography and pedophilia that has racked American society since the '70s is an inseparable part of our society's denial of the shortcomings and failures of the family’.
No I don’t get the link either, nor is her/his statement justified in the text. Califia’s argument that many children are murdered by their families does not explain why child pornography is not bad (hint, child pornography is bad and Califia is wrong).
‘Moral crusades have also been used to attack both feminism and gay rights, and neither of these progressive movements has been very successful at defending itself against such attacks or at presenting a complete analysis of them’.
Notice how Califia is trying to align pro-paedophilia with genuinely progressive movements.
Here we enter the big section – ‘Child Pornography’. Grab a sick bucket and gather round.
Califia maintains that ‘Child pornography has been a special category in American law since 1977’.Hurrah!

Califia goes on to argue that homophobia, particularly the legal campaign by Anita Bryant, is the reason that child pornography is banned. Once again a queer theorist is linking gay rights with the right to sexually abuse children. It is an appalling argument to make.
In the next section Califia tries to downplay the damage child sexual abuse causes by describing it as ‘kiddy porn’. Let’s call it what it is – the rape and abuse of a child including and horrific pain.

Califia then argues that the Post Office is targeting gay people in a huge conspiracy. It is quite the read.
Califia in her/his various arguments – first it was the feminists – now it is the Post Office is kind of suggesting that feminists are in league with the Post Office in a grand conspiracy. This is the only original arguments I can discern in Califia’s article.

Califia states that ‘American society has become rabidly phobic about any sexual contact between adults and minors’.
Califia tries to use feminism to support paedophilia. Throughout the article and without signal Califia switches between talking about the sexual abuse of children and teenage sexual activity. This is a calculated attempt to obscure the argument that adults should be allowed to have sex with children.

Califia claims that ‘Lesbian-feminism supposedly empowers women, but we are reluctant to see young women's sexual experiences as anything but victimization’. That is a deliberate distortion.

Here it is, as predictable as the sun will rise, opposing adults having sexual relationships with those under the age of consent is ageism. ‘We give lip service to confronting ageism, but we do not really include underage lesbian and bisexual women in our community’.
‘You may argue that adolescent dykes should experiment sexually and romantically with each other. But when they are trapped in schools, neighborhoods… where being called queer targets them for harassment and assault, how many young lesbians can afford to come out or seek out others like themselves’?

Rather than target the culture of bullying and non-acceptance Califia targets age of consent laws and child protection. Go figure.
‘The state is not willing to take the radical action that would be necessary to protect child victims of abusive adults. That would mean challenging parents' ownership of their children. It would mean providing viable alternatives to the family’. Well that is chilling. Califia is sick of parents safeguarding children.

The online Paedophile collective have provided a hopeful after note. They report that ‘In Pat Califia's 2nd Edition of Public Sex, The Culture of Radical Sex, she expresses a sad change in stance. As of 2000, she no longer accepts prepubescent children's and many young teenager's possibility to consent to erotic or sexual contacts with adults’.
‘She has become much more cynical about adults and their ability to listen to children, and now as a parent she thinks more in terms of making the child's welfare a priority than of consent’.

Anlaf · 29/08/2018 19:46

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I've long argued for there being noticable geographical variations in the behaviour expected from women. I'm pleased to find common cause with this individual.

On the other, this is a work of great and comedic horse-bollocks.

On the other I identify as having as many hands as the point demands this is featuring in actual people's actual therapy to understand themselves and deal with trauma.

Fucking hell

Anlaf · 29/08/2018 19:56

And I don't want to sound like I don't support there being diversity in relationship styles....

But what is solo-polyamoury?

And why is "Sex Work" in the "Relationships" Section? sex workers trouble conventional understandings of relationships (see 4.1) because they engage in sexual encounters for reasons other than romantic love.

Presumably reasons such as being trafficked?

Procrastinator1 · 29/08/2018 20:22

Are BACP members happy with any association with someone who is
"an advocate for paedophilia as a legitimate sexual orientation"

This is in their good practice guide? They are a charity too.

JennieLee · 29/08/2018 21:13

If I'm from the Midlands does that mean I'm intersex?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 29/08/2018 21:16

I think we should all write to the BACP and point out that this document uses arguments from someone who is a paedophile apologist, that we oppose this promotion of someone who supports child sex abuse, feel this point alone calls into question the judgement of the author, and will be telling people far and wide to avoid bacp counsellors on this basis.

So outrageous. Also, the rest of it is a pile of bollocks and doesn't make sense.

Procrastinator1 · 29/08/2018 21:44

Non binary, perhaps, JennieLee, and we all know non binary people are valid so its OK.

Anlaf · 29/08/2018 21:51

Yeah on the "age-play" and other worrisome bits, this passage stood out on consent [3.8]:

some behaviours which are there [in the DSM5 as 'paraphilic disorders'] by virtue of being regarded as nonnormative or transgressive (e.g. disorders relating to consensual BDSM and ‘cross-dressing’) and some which are there by virtue of being nonconsensual (e.g. disorders relating to sex with children and adolescents).

I cd be wrong but I didn't think the only issue with "paedophilic disorders" was the child does not consent. It's that the child cannot consent, and that sexual activity with a child is recognised as harmful to the child even if in some world (child marriage in the US as an example) they were deemed to have consented. Am I wrong?

Also this later piece seems to show that the client acting out their desires is fine if it's consenting:

If you, and/or a client, has concerns around whether their sexual desires are possible to be acted upon consensually, whether they are behaving ethically and consensually themselves, and/or whether their past sexual experiences may have been non-consensual or abusive, it can be useful to raise these listed points. Be mindful that:
(1) non-consensual fantasies are extremely common and may even be helpful survival strategies in life (Morin, 2012);
(2) they may never be acted upon, or people may find consensual ways of acting upon them through accessing erotica, ethical porn, or kink spaces

....which perhaps puts the reference [in 3.7] to age-play in context [Role-playing such as being an animal (furry) or being older or younger (age-play) are also common]:

Anlaf · 29/08/2018 21:57

The full list of paraphilic disorders from the DSM5, btw, are:

exhibitionistic disorder, fetishistic disorder, frotteuristic disorder, pedophilic disorder, sexual masochism disorder, sexual sadism disorder, transvestic disorder, and voyeuristic disorder.

and

Most people with atypical sexual interests do not have a mental disorder. To be diagnosed with a paraphilic disorder, DSM-5 requires that people with these interests:
• feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval; or
• have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent.

www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/DSM/APA_DSM-5-Paraphilic-Disorders.pdf

TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap · 29/08/2018 22:39

The odd thing about the transnorthern stuff is that according to Wikipedia Meg-John is a northerner. Born in Hull, grew up in Bradford, Ph.D. from Nottingham. Here is Meg-John looking like an extra from Monty Python.

BACP Gender,Sexual, and Relationship Diversity by Dr Meg-John Barker
ScienceRoar · 29/08/2018 22:51

I have given birth to two children, which I thought would place me firmly in the category of woman.
However, on reading the description of the British cultural context of a woman, and the companion description for a man, it transpires that I am actually a man. Fascinating.

ThatDoctorEM · 30/08/2018 00:54

Anlaf I thought that too with the references to age-play and disorders marching out of the DSM V.

It may be a big pile of steaming horse poo, but it is, arguably, dangerous horse poo.

TheGoddessFrigg · 30/08/2018 06:35

I am still reeling at the idea that anyone educated believes the health staff measure the penis or clitoris at birth and then 'assign' the sex.

(This means my ex would definitely have been assigned as a woman #notbitter)

BertrandRussell · 30/08/2018 07:58

“The sex of a baby is medically assigned on the basis of the length of the clitoris/penis."

Surely, surely nobody believes this?

AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 08:01

"but do continue to hold in mind that it is biopsychosocial"

Translation - I intend to engage in the practice known as "making up shite" from here on, so please remember to respond in an appropriately feminine manner by nodding sympathetically and offering to make some tea.

littlbrowndog · 30/08/2018 08:07

Bump

AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 08:15

I can't be the only one wondering what consensual deception looks like? It's not deception if you've consented to it, is it!

You are not. If they know that you're not being honest then you're doing a bit of a shit job of deceiving them!

Also, I apologize for the fact that after reading Ereshkigal's initial statement I incorrectly regioned her as cis Northern. Maybe we should do a city or county of origin round before every discussion just to be safe?

AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 08:27

Sorry, that was low and juvenile, etc etc. I really dislike people who bang on about their 'kink' it's so dull and usually done to prove they have a sex life to those who might otherwise doubt it.

Suddenly remembered this skit, who knows what could possibly have prompted that?

Evidencebased · 30/08/2018 08:44

Well I obviously need the Trans-Northern t shirt.
I was briefly really worried that I'd woken up as a man this morning, as I display most of those 'male' characteristics.
Luckily I am suffused by huge amounts of a strong emotion on reading this, so can probably still pass as a woman.

BertrandRussell · 30/08/2018 08:44

“I really dislike people who bang on about their 'kink' “

Me too. I put them in the same category as the types who call themselves “alternative” or who “can’t be bothered with small talk” or who talk about “mundanes”.