Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports

[CholloDeNombre]

Link here http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

Conclusion
Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) describes a phenomenon where the development of gender dysphoria is observed to begin suddenly during or after puberty in an adolescent or young adult who would not have met criteria for gender dysphoria in childhood. ROGD appears to represent an entity that is distinct from the gender dysphoria observed in individuals who have previously been described as transgender. The worsening of mental well-being and parent-child relationships and behaviors that isolate AYAs from their parents, families, non-transgender friends and mainstream sources of information are particularly concerning. More research is needed to better understand this phenomenon, its implications and scope.

I hope this brings ROGD into more public discourse.

There are exceptionally few medical conditions where there is only one recommended care pathway. Even then, even if its against medical advice, people retain the right to refuse this in certain circumstances.

I find it alarming when it is suggested that there is such a monolithic approach to care; its not that black and white in other areas of medicine.

It should always be about the medical needs of individual rather than the political desires of a group. Sadly the latter is being put first in too many cases. (And one is too many)

I hear what you're saying @RedToothBrush, but ideological agendas permeate medicine.

I'm minded to remind people that women have suffered from the medical profession being lacking in identifying how women present differently to men in all manner of health conditions which has ultimately harmed them.

Women have also suffered from the medical profession putting their illnesses down to delusion and social contagion. I'd be happy to see some correction. That will always include some overcorrection. It's not a unique travesty, it's human nature.

It's not a unique travesty, it's human nature

The purpose of peer reviewing and encouraging an environment which allows multiple research projects is to mitigate that effect.

Instead we have a particularly extreme creep of ideology into medicine and science, which goes beyond what can be written off as 'just human nature' and strays into deliberate and concerted effort to undermine the independence and reliability of science to a point which is not justifiable by anyone if they believe in the principle of 'do no harm'.

Do not minimise it. Do not justify it.

Except you just did.

Thats unacceptable complicity with harm.

Thats what people get jailed for or get their arses sued off for btw.

@InsaneVampire

Women have also suffered from the medical profession putting their illnesses down to delusion and social contagion.

You really don't get it, do you? Women are ignored. Women and girls are told that we are less important than men. Girls are told that they can choose to be men instead and by doing so will become a member of the important sex instead of the lesser sex.

Not so long ago, girls who didn't want to be lesser became feminists and fought to change the view that women were less important than men. Now they try to become men and fight against the people who should be their allies - feminists.

So do you see gender dysphoria as an illness? The causes of illness should be explored as well as the symptoms. If the cause is a rejection of typical gender roles and stereotypes, the cure is feminism, not transition.

I read this post with the Youtuber Ash Hardell in mind. Ash just had her breasts removed. You can see the video

I found it a touching video - at this stage of her life, Ash has obviously found having breasts a very negative experience. Having surgery to get rid of them with all the potential complications that involves has clearly made her feel happier. Who knows how Ash will feel in 20 years and who knows how she would have felt had she been born at a time when there was no internet and people portraying this surgery as being something which alleviates one's unhappiness.

If you watch the video, though, it includes other trans people congratulating her and celebrating this surgery as a hugely positive event. It does show the level of pain Ash is in post-surgery but otherwise there is no discussion at all about what a serious thing it is. There will be some very easily-influenced kids watching it and wanting to be similarly applauded by famous YouTubers. To say there is no ROGD is ridiculous.

Yes, I watched that the other night. I found it quite upsetting. I'm glad Ash feels they have found a measure of peace (so far, though I would guess much of that is a sense of euphoria which will be transitory) but I still find it incredibly disturbing that a beautiful healthy young lesbian feels that they hate their body so much that no therapy but body mutilation can resolve.

And the parade of congratulations from 'famous' faces at the end is entirely the kind of false community creation that has nearly snared unhappy and lonely girls like my daughter.

Exactly. Who celebrates a young woman mutilating themselves? You can feel glad for them if it really has given them a little more peace but behind that is surely enormous sadness too? It is fundamentally devastating that any young person does this to themselves.

I spent years hating my breasts. I wanted them gone. I'm not trans or gay. I feel completely the opposite now about them. It took me years to get here but I am glad I didn't have the option to harm myself in such a profound way. I will spend a lot more of my life loving my body than I ever spent struggling with it.

Reading the paper gives the following very definite pieces of information:

• the survey was targetted at parents on 3 websites
• 2 of the 3 websites are for parents who are 'critical' of adolescent trans issues
• the 3rd is a closed website called "youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org" (so, for the sake of argument, let's assume it's critical)

None of the survey data comes from the AYAs themselves, all of it comes from parents who seem to be aligned with websites in dispute about their (mostly) daughter's GD.

So, what;s to discuss ?

The fact that parental experience is not irrelevant to the issue?

The paper is a study of parent reports which is stated very clearly.

It points to the need for further research and highlights areas of concern.

If a study were done of parents of children who were, say bulimic, - and you recruited those parents from websites where concerned parents congregated to discuss what was happening to their children - completely uncontroversial, and would provide valuable information. So what is the problem?

There's a selection bias in that parents who are understanding and supportive of their children's gender choice aren't likely to have been included in the survey and their views will not be represented.

Therefore the survey doesn't show the full gamut of parental responses, so can't be taken as anything other than a biased survey.

But the selection bias is there for all to see. It's not hidden in the footnotes.

So survey the parents who don't question a GD diagnosis in their children and publish those too. This information is desperately needed so we can find out what is going on.

gfamily2

Have you read the whole thread? The issue of who was included in the survey has been covered. It was a study of people whose children appeared to have decided they were trans in adolescence when there had been no signs of this earlier in their lives.

Including all trans-identified adolescents would not change the experiences of the group in this study.

Interesting that you use the phrase 'gender choice'. Do you think everyone chooses their gender? What definition are you using for the word 'gender'?

The PLOS article conclusion includes
The worsening of mental well-being and parent-child relationships and behaviors that isolate AYAs from their parents, families, non-transgender friends and mainstream sources of information are particularly concerning

But we don't know whether there is any particular worsening. We only have a set of reports from the subset of parents who are concerned about trans issues and, as a result visit two of those websites; or parents who were encouraged to complete the survey by professionals who are concerned about trans issues (the 3rd website).

If you look at the reaction to the paper on the first page of this thread, you'll see comments such as "grooming" and "gaslighting" - clearly, people are using the paper to support the idea that AYAs are being 'encouraged into' being trans by contact with other trans people.

We don't know whether this is justified, because, as I say, we only have the views of parents who aren't comfortable with their children's view of their gender.

But we don't know whether there is any particular worsening.

The paper says that there is, within this particular group. It doesn't say anything about other parents and children who are not within this particular group.

people are using the paper to support the idea that AYAs are being 'encouraged into' being trans by contact with other trans people.

It appears that this is happening to some young people, going by the experiences of this particular group. It doesn't say that this is always the case, just that it happens to a number of young people.

We don't know whether this is justified, because, as I say, we only have the views of parents who aren't comfortable with their children's view of their gender.

Of course it is justified. Just because there might be people who have a different experience does not invalidate the experience of the people in the study.

I'd still like an answer to my question about what definition you are using for 'gender', and whether you think that everyone chooses their gender.

I am critical of the transgender movement, I have a transgender child and our relationship is really good - but that doesn't invalidate the study. It means that further research is needed.

Interesting that you use the phrase 'gender choice'. Do you think everyone chooses their gender? What definition are you using for the word 'gender

No, I don't think everyone chooses their gender, but gender dysphoria is a real thing and some people who experience it have the choice whether to live as assigned at birth, or whether to transition to the gender they feel more comfortable with. The extent to which they transition is also a choice they make I suppose.

I don't have a clear enough understanding to be able to formally define these terms, so they may not be used in the same way as understood by others.

I don't have a clear enough understanding to be able to formally define these terms, so they may not be used in the same way as understood by others.

If you can't define the terms you're using, how can you have an opinion on a subject? You appear to be saying "I don't understand what I'm talking about, but I'm still going to tell you that I'm right and you're wrong." Do you see why I don't find that argument very compelling?

I agree that gender dysphoria is a real thing, but the definition of gender is important for understanding what action should be taken to alleviate the symptoms of a sufferer.

If you define 'gender' as a synonym for sex, then the person with gender (sex) dysphoria hates the appearance of their sexed body and wishes to change it to resemble that of the opposite sex. It is important that such a person receives therapy, not just affirmation that they have been born in the wrong body, since there are many reasons why someone might feel like this. Not all such people will benefit from hormonal and surgical treatment.

If you define 'gender' to mean the cultural and societal expectations of someone based on their biological sex, I would say that the best treatment for someone suffering from gender dysphoria is to do away with any notion of gender and to live the life they want to. No changes to their body is needed.

This is why the definition of 'gender' is important.

If you can't define the terms you're using, how can you have an opinion on a subject?
Quite easily, thanks.

You appear to be saying "I don't understand what I'm talking about, but I'm still going to tell you that I'm right and you're wrong." Do you see why I don't find that argument very compelling?

If I was doing that, I would also not find it very compelling. Just as I don't find it compelling when you tell me you're right and I'm wrong, particularly on such spurious grounds.

I do not aim to tell people what they should think about their bodies or what they should do about it. It seems to me that you do though.

And you seem to use a poorly executed 'survey' to support your point of view to the exclusion of other opinions.

Just as I don't find it compelling when you tell me you're right and I'm wrong, particularly on such spurious grounds.

Where did I say that?

I do not aim to tell people what they should think about their bodies or what they should do about it. It seems to me that you do though.

Where did I say that? Have you actually read anything I've written?

And you seem to use a poorly executed 'survey' to support your point of view to the exclusion of other opinions.

My point of view has come about through reading and thinking about lots of different viewpoints.

I do not aim to tell people what they should think about their bodies or what they should do about it. It seems to me that you do though.

Where did I say that? Have you actually read anything I've written?

Something in this suggests you do.
I would say that the best treatment for someone suffering from gender dysphoria is to do away with any notion of gender and to live the life they want to. No changes to their body is needed.

I'm done though.

Do you really think people should be medicated and have surgery because they don't conform to regressive, outdated gender stereotypes? Really?

And you still haven't said what definition of gender you're using. Without that your arguments mean nothing. All you said is "I don't have a clear enough understanding to be able to formally define these terms", implying that you don't even know what you mean by gender. I offered two possible definitions. Are you using one of those or something else entirely?

One more question for you gfamily2. Do you think people can change sex?

Do you really think people should be medicated and have surgery because they don't conform to regressive, outdated gender stereotypes? Really?

This is exactly what I mean by you feeling you can tell people how they should feel about themselves. See?

OK, that post was poorly worded. We're talking about children. What I should have said was:

Do you really think children should be encouraged to take off-label medication and have surgery because they don't conform to regressive, outdated gender stereotypes? Really?

Clearly adults can do whatever they want with their own bodies.