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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Artistic Director of Queer Up North speaks out on trans activism, Stonewall and women's rights

337 replies

SanctimoniousMorph · 16/08/2018 09:30

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

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ToeToToe · 20/08/2018 20:10

Jonny, thanks again for writing about this.

Many of us have been silenced on Twitter - either shadowbanned, actually banned or just so piled-on with abuse we can't be doing with it anymore. I read, and re-tweet, and that's about all now.

That's why Mumsnet is such an important space for us - it's not just that it's a predominantly female space - It's that we can, in fact, discuss topics (mainly) freely, and without abuse and harassment.

If you notice - transactivists rarely venture onto the MN boards. Mumsnet is open to everyone, but instead they prefer to shout about us from the Wild West of Twitter - where they can abuse, harass, doxx, and threaten us - even with rape and death threats - seemingly with impunity. (By 'us' I mean gender-critical feminists.) Which is very frightening if you are on twitter under your real name.

Here, such attacks break the talk guidelines. Posters will be deleted and/or banned for personal attacks, name-calling and so on. A poster joining up to post "you're all a load of hateful bigots and transphobes" will be deleted here. A few try, but it doesn't hurt us. This is a relatively safe space for women.

A few TAs have come on to debate, but the lack of reasoned argument is palpable - because chanting "Transwomen are women" will not work, it doesn't sand up to scrutiny. Many posters here are well-versed with political argument, feminist theory, some are seasoned political and feminist campaigners (I'm not speaking for myself here!) - usually, but not exclusively, left-wingers - who have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the LGB community for decades, fighting for equality - only to have become disillusioned with gender ideology in the past few months/years, because of the bullying by TAs, and the pushing of boundaries and language. Because, when examined, gender ideology is at odds with feminism. Gender ideology reinforces rigid, stereotypical gender roles, 'girl-brain /boy-brain' - whereas feminism has always fought against them.

Seasoned feminists know when they are being shafted - and women are being shafted.

Losing the right to define ourselves as a category, losing the definition of 'woman' as an adult human female - The group who have been historically oppressed, and at higher risk of sexual violence, with the additional risk of pregnancy - due to her biology - her reproductive role. Even talk of this is deemed transphobic - hell, on the last Women's March women were told pink pussy hats were transphobic, and women have been lambasted for having pictures of wombs and ovaries on placards.. transphobic, you see.

Feminists are now being told to put those born with penises at the centre of their feminism, or they're not being inclusive and intersectional enough. Feminism is no longer allowed to centre women.

ToeToToe · 20/08/2018 20:11

God, sorry for that long long post. I think that might be my longest post ever on Mumsnet Grin

Got a bit carried away.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:15

ToeToToe
It was great. Sometimes long posts just flow. Better out than in Smile

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:19

Cheers gendercritter
I've just been having a chat with a (male) Twitter mate about how we can get men more engaged, esp how to persuade some of the left wing dude-bros who are tending to just assume that the progressive team here is the LGBT establishment. We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

YesSirCowBoy · 20/08/2018 20:26

We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

Very much appreciated. I understand fair play for women and a woman's place UK have GRA consultation guides.

BraveAndStunning · 20/08/2018 20:29

Good post Toe

Your voice is appreciated Jonny but Datun is right, your being a bloke means you have more opportunity to have a platform. I have been here talking about this for three years. I'm still a 'newbie'. I was educated about this on here. Talking about it on twitter got me repeatedly shadowbanned so I deleted my account. Mumsnet is one of the few platforms that women have.

Toe is right; the TRAs don't venture on here much because they can't dish out the threats and abuse they do everywhere else on the internet. Their ideology falls flat when faced with logic and science and the threads remain for all to read: they don't like that so they attack Mumsnet itself. The quality of debate and knowledge on the feminist board is extraordinary. It's a special place, no wonder the TRAs hate it.

The bizarre thing is that most of the women on this board have been standing up for marginailised groups all their lives and not we are being targetted for not simply stepping aside while our rights are being trodden on. It's pure betrayal.

BraveAndStunning · 20/08/2018 20:40

@JonnyBest

This thread might make your brain explode

twitter.com/XXagainstSexBot/status/1030993083817779201

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:41

BraveandStunning

I am still trying to get my head around shadowbanning. It's only since writing that I realised how widespread the practice has become and how prevalent it is for GC women. Sometimes it seems that two thirds of women in my timeline are shadow banned...

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 20:44

BraveandStunning

I saw it earlier and decided not to dwell on it. It's too screwed up. I thought if I get angry about something else too I won't be able to focus on trying to bash out 800 words...There's so much insanity out there I have to look away from some of it so I can focus on the bit that's in front of me. I can't be alone in that.

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 21:10

Losing the right to define ourselves as a category, losing the definition of 'woman' as an adult human female - The group who have been historically oppressed, and at higher risk of sexual violence, with the additional risk of pregnancy - due to her biology - her reproductive role. Even talk of this is deemed transphobic - hell, on the last Women's March women were told pink pussy hats were transphobic, and women have been lambasted for having pictures of wombs and ovaries on placards.. transphobic, you see

Brilliant post. It's the thing that disturbs & angers me most - people trying to take away my right to self-define, and to define the category/class of which I am a part.

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 21:15

We are working on something to persuade men to complete the GRA consultation and to help them get their heads around the central issue of self-ID and what it means.

Jonny it might be brutal & cruel, but pone way straight men are being "peak transed" is by being pushed on "If transwomen are women, would you have sex with a transwoman?"

Owen Jones famously has dodged the question of whether he'd have sex cunnilingus - can we say that here? with a transman who'd not had sex-reassignment surgery - particularly cowardly of him as he was calling out some lesbians for transphobia when they'd said they weren't attracted to penises (I think that was the story?)

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 21:18

OhtheHillsareAlive
That;'s a bloody good point. It doesn't sound brutal - it sounds like something which might have the capacity to wake straight men up a bit. Only something which jolts their complacency will do the job. I like it.

MaybeDoctor · 20/08/2018 21:24

That article is brilliant and beautifully written.

👏🏻

AsAProfessionalFekko · 20/08/2018 21:28

My battery is about to die so I scanread the first chunk. Interesting how he doesn't mention his gender/sexuality a million times (I assume he is gay and I don't really care anyway) like some people. He actually has a job that isn't 'being professionally gay/trans/whatever'.

YesSirCowBoy · 20/08/2018 21:29

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3341694-Gender-neutral-disabled-toilets?pg=2&order=

Maybe for another time, abilism of space from selfish TRAs also service providers and there is also the Autistic angle.

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 21:34

it sounds like something which might have the capacity to wake straight men up a bit

It is a bit brutal; & distasteful - I've seen the question asked of straight blokes on Twitter and there were some really transphobic responses from straight men (actual hatred & violent language towards transwomen). As much as the transactivists are appalling, normal ordinary transwomen don't deserve that sort of abuse, nor should they have to read it.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 21:41

OhTheHillsAreAlive
I agree trans women should not have to read abuse - twitter is not an all-purpose platform. This question is not suited to twitter, I would argue. And challenging people you don't know is different from challenging people you do know.

But in conversation with a straight man one knows, the question is a valid one I think - if trans women are women, would you have sex with a trans woman? It forces a man to connect his woke speech with his actual sexual desire and actions.

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 22:08

Who was the cockwomble who spent days and days on Twitter lambasting GC women (and the lovely Shoeless Joe, who is much missed) and after endless tweets and obnoxious misogyny, ending up saying this about TW:

"I see them as women except for relationship purposes."

Someone-something Green, was it?

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 22:10

Owen Jones famously has dodged the question of whether he'd have sex cunnilingus - can we say that here? with a transman who'd not had sex-reassignment surgery

Poor lil Sanctimonious Morph. He did not enjoy the Cunnlingus Challenge, did he?

OhtheHillsareAlive · 20/08/2018 22:11

And ditto gay men - would they have [penetrative] sex with a transman?

littlbrowndog · 20/08/2018 22:13

Hey Jonny

Not the most articulate off the poster# here but is the best plac3 ever for learning abou5 what this will mean for all the women’s and girls.

Ther3 was a a post about what the goldsmiths wokey dudes did to a great community in deptford

The6 took i5 over and destroyed it

Can someone find the post pls as I can’t find it..?

For me it struck a chord in how thevwokey dude bros completely killed a working class group with their intsanistin that inclusiveness was what it was all about

The6 didn’t care that ppl were just struggling to ge5 by and survive

Seem like sometime# this is jus5 a posh boy thing where they have th3 time an£ the mone6 to spend time on Twitter

Rambling now 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️😂

littlbrowndog · 20/08/2018 22:14

Lols smh. Can someone find the deptford linkie pls

LangCleg · 20/08/2018 22:20

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3341433-Examples-of-Silencing-in-trans-debate?pg=3

There you go, Little Dog - I put the whole thing, and the Feminist Current article, on page 3.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 22:22

LangCleg we have to find that quote. It is too, too good.

JonnyBest · 20/08/2018 22:23

I wish I could write 'cockwomble' in the Speccie [Sad]