DM: Women avoiding new gender neutral toilets in the home office because men can't close the door

[miri1985]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6065075/Female-Home-Office-employees-refusing-use-new-36-000-gender-neutral-toilets.html

Great job wasting money as usual!

I think the claim from the DM that they spent £8k on a sign is probably bullshit though!

I also don't think the men are likely to be doing it on purpose to upset anyone

I agree that it's likely a combination of
Not used to shutting the door so not automatic

But hang on a minute. All these men are potty trained lost likely predominantly by their mothers.who are obviously women.

Plus they are pretty bloody good at shutting the door and hiding for hours on the toilet with their iPhones whole the wife chases the kids around down stairs.

Stop infantalising men and excusing what is clearly purposeful behaviour

Apparently there is a big hooha in Paris ATM about their new Eco open air urinals(for men of course because only women are physically able to contain their urine until they get to somewhere with a proper toilet). Some of the urinals have been sited in sensitive places eg overlooking the river in full view of any passing boat and passengers. What made me sigh heavily though was a picture of one of the urinals complete with a stream of urine running across the pavement , even when they are pandered to and given decent facilities it appears some men are incapable of using them properly.

Reminded me of wheeling my buggy past Highbury and Islington Station when Arsenal were playing at home - the side wall of the station was used as a urinal, in full view of station staff and police, and the resulting urine was like a raging torrent.

Giles I'm not infantilising anyone.

Most men I know piss with the door open at home (unless there are guests.

I mean I often piss with the door open at home! It's hardly unusual.

I do think they could if they wanted to obviously and I suspect there is an element of why should I bother, but I suspect it's down to laziness rather than wanting to expose themselves / upset women.

viques yes I saw that!

The mayor (or whoever) said we must provdie this to stop men urinating on the street

A woman said what are you going to provide for women? Litter trays? It's sexist. Men should fucking well learn to behave themselves, as women do.

Remember that story in amsterdam? where a woman got fined for urinating in the street, the judge said she should have used the open air urinal designed for men...!!! There was an outcry.

there's not much point telling men to close the door when there's these revolting open urinals all over the country now

there's even some along the river in Paris now apparently?

so men have it in their heads that they can pee in full view of everyone, they are being taught this from a young age if they live in any city in Europe it seems. So they are not going to care if the sign says "close the door".

yet another argument for single sex facilities.

If you make toilets unisex

Many men will piss in the sink / outside etc as they will not wait (anti social fuckers)
Women will have their queues made longer by the ones who will wait, and by all the ones who need a shit.

Great.

I do think some of the men will do it as a power thing, yes, I should add.

it's not often I say anything in defence of men but if you did grow up seeing open urinals, then you did grow up hearing the message that it's okay.

I don't know if people were not interested, this thread seems relevant to me.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3336619-British-toilet-association?msgid=80236708#80236708

The men will also be unhappy about these new arrangements, don't forget, and this might also be a protest. Well if you're going to make me use the toilets with women, take my urinals away, have me queue, I'm ot going to be civilised about it.

In this specific scenario, however, the men could be subjected to disciplinary proceedings. They should do this.

Or even better, follow the legal guidelines for separate single sex spaces.

Like how they pissed up the walls at that university.

I've no issue with both sexes using a proper individual room, ie a loo, a sink and a hand dryer, with a lock on the door.

I have massive issues sharing a large room with individual toilet cubicles with males.

I know exactly how I would feel, if I was inside a cubicle and a group of people with male sounding voices came in. Who, out of us, would leave the cubicle whilst a group of unknown people who sound like they have male voices stood outside? In a space that's closed off to the rest of the pub, restaurant, store, whatever? Yes, I'd maybe be doing a perfectly lovely group of people a complete disservice, but how the hell can I tell if they're friend or foe??? I'd have no idea how many of them there were. I've no idea what size they are. All I have are the voices. And those voices, even if they had no idea I was there, would be telling me to stay still, stay quiet and stay unnoticed until it was safe to leave.

I'd either have to wait until they all left, or text my husband and ask him to come in to the "gender neutral" toilets and be there when I opened the door.

What a fucking way to live...

It's not women's fault though is it? If they want to protest there are other ways.

I think the "the men don't shut the door" reason given is a fig leaf.

The women don't want to go in there because men do. All the basic instincts millennia of evolution has created to help us survive kicks in. But in today's world, they can't say that without social, or offical sanction.

So they point to the open doors. Which I'm sure make the experience worse.

But if all the men, all the time, shut all the doors.... the women still wouldn't want to go in there.

Most of them will be of an age where hard learned, high cost, life lessons mean they listen to their instincts. Albeit while scrabbling about for a new bag of socially acceptable reasons why they are avoiding the Most Expensive Bogs Ever.

Surely if they've spent so much money on gender neutral toilets they should be fit for purpose? The only gender neutral toilets that I would be comfortable using would have floor to ceiling lockable doors with the sink inside the cubicle and opening into a public area. The setup they have is already unacceptable without men refusing to shut the cubicle doors on top of that

I do think they could if they wanted to obviously and I suspect there is an element of why should I bother, but I suspect it's down to laziness rather than wanting to expose themselves / upset women

Seriously all these men hold down jobs. Some high powered and well paid no doubt . You dont get there without putting in hard work and observing all.kinds of expected behaviours and conducting yourself appropriately.

Except of course when it comes to women.

They know. They sodding know. They don't care.

BeefTomato

Yes - it's not difficult to think about this properly.

But there's been story after story - the barbican, the university where the men pissed everywhere, this one. They are not using common sense about how people actually behave and what their needs are when they are doing this. It's all a sort of fantasy where men are all lovely and clean and women are happy to wash blood off their hands at the sink while chatting to dave from accounts.

it is becoming increasingly common in bars. Men hardly ever seem to be close the door and both I and a friend have walked into 'gender neutral' toilets (two different bars on different occasions) to be faced with a man with his penis out pissing in the sinks because the cubicles were occupied.

Surely at some point this would impact on customers?- I wouldn't want to go to that bar especially if there were others nearby where I didn't have to deal with that.

The women don't want to go in there because men do.

I susepct that's most of the reason as well - I suspect the door thing has been latched onto as a fixable issue.

Surely if they've spent so much money on gender neutral toilets they should be fit for purpose? The only gender neutral toilets that I would be comfortable using would have floor to ceiling lockable doors with the sink inside the cubicle and opening into a public area.

Those are common in coffee shops IME where there are only one or two and I've never known any one have an issue - other than queues.

Depends on the clientelle bigkite! I used to go to a club back in the day where over time the 3 doors in the ladies got broken and eventually gone - you would take a mate to stand in front in lieu of a door!

Admittedly now I am in my mid 40s I would not be so keen but then drinking snakebite til I puked and trying to get off with a variety of long haired young men is not really on the radar either

Agree that the women dont' want to go in because the men do.

i would feel really uncomfortable sharing a toilet in this configuration with my male work colleagues.

I'd probably go to a different floor. I suspect lots of women and men will start using the accessible toilets, thus also fucking things up for people who need those.

Someone on another thread said that they used the gender neutral loos on a university open day. A group of men, and at least one trans woman, had moved all the sanitary bins out of the cubicles, lined them up, and were standing in front of them. They were demanding that anyone wanting to use the bins showed them what was in her hand. The MNer tried to complain to staff but was told they could do nothing.

What?

Why did they do that?

I've seen some people say they'd be happy with unisex if there were full length, lockable doors so each individual loo was private.

I can see why some are but I'm not. At the moment it is taboo for a man to enter a woman's loos. Some people go in anyway and assault women, yes, but many don't because of it being a line you don't cross.

I wouldn't want to be in a unisex loo in the evening at a venue when it was quieter to give one example - a man just has to shove you in the room and lock the door if he wished to assault you. I'd feel vulnerable. Single sex loos are what I'd like with a third option that is gender neutral for trans people.