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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC reality check on trans prisoners

87 replies

FermatsTheorem · 13/08/2018 10:09

Let's play that great gameshow activity "what crucial piece of information is missing from this report?"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Those numbers add up to more than 60 because some prisoners are serving time for more than one offence.

We don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases.

Which is why, BBC, it is important to put in a breakdown of overall numbers of prisoners in the UK, numbers of sex offenders and number of violent offenders - BY SEX!

And, gosh, guess what, "Reality Check"? This information is but a quick google away, because the government actually put the figures online for us - they're not hidden away in a cellar with broken stairs in a locked filing cabinet with a sign saying "beware of the leopard."

From the report for 2017:
"In 1900 there were 152 male prisoners per 100,000 men in the population. This rate has increased to 348 per 100,000 in 2017. There were 27 female prisoners per 100,000 head of female population in 1900. In 2017 this rate had decreased to 16 per 100,000."

I believe the current figures are that 98% of the prisoners in the UK convicted of sexual offences are serving time in the male estate.

Sex offending (despite recent much publicised "women do it too" newspaper reports) is overwhelmingly committed by men.

OP posts:
PeakPants · 13/08/2018 22:07

Transgender journalist and campaigner Jane Fae warns against reading too much into the available figures

Yeah, I'm sure Jane does... In other news, the pope is Catholic.

R0wantrees · 14/08/2018 00:15

Jane Fae does seem the BBC go-to TRA commentator.

InsaneVampire · 14/08/2018 05:38

So Fair Play for Women excluded most people serving short sentences, i.e. most people not convicted of violent crimes.
There is your skewing artefact.

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 06:14

Would that be the Jane Fae who previously wrote approvingly about cartoon child pornography and other content beloved by violent rapists?
www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/24/denmark_manga/
www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/02/scotland_extreme_smut/
Such a good source. Does the BBC perhaps have a spokesman from the Paedophile Information Exchange to consult ?

FeminismandWomensFights · 14/08/2018 06:49

Government departments and organisations like the BBC can maintain their courtesy but they must keep the integrity of their sex-based statistics. Surely all they need to do if they want to be ‘inclusive’ is add a strap line each time like ‘NB these are sex-based statistics which are produced regardless of the indiivdual’s gender indentity.’ job done.

It is absolutely not OK to falsify everyone’s statistics to validate a tiny minority of people.

Doing so will scupper good initiatives that would benefit women at risk of offending AND would benefit women prisoners.

Because it stops us being able to distinguish men from women statistically even though men typically offend in much greater numbers, and men do so much more violently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334145-New-government-female-offender-strategy

R0wantrees · 14/08/2018 08:02

Andrew Gilligan (Times) comments:
mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1029092863081111552

"Almost half of trans prisoners counted by the Ministry of Justice are sex offenders, FOIs find - confirming fairplaywomen and Sunday Times research. The BBC did the FOIs, but clearly didn't like the result - downplaying it in typically mealy-mouthed way."

"It's dishonest, I think - no evidence is offered for BBC claim that short-sentence prisoners less likely to be sex offenders; and even if it's true, it won't change the percentage by much."

"The prison service claims that all trans prisoners are vetted carefully before being put in women's jails. That plainly isn't true."
link from tweet:
metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

prolific Twitter TRA's reply when AG says read the article above:
"I don’t need to, the crazy idea that if vetting ever goes wrong, it can’t have taken place is self evident nonsense.
You doing the equivalent of claiming that Harold Shipman proves that all doctors are murders."

"I don't need to" read evidence that contradicts my view - the trans lobby in a nutshell. Surely the first alleged attack by this lady in her new prison should have been a teensy weensy flag of risk? But then there were allegedly allowed to be THREE more."

NB when someone on thread suggests that trans men surely be in male prison estate Francis Crook from Howard Reform League replies,
"No. I’ve not heard of trans men going to men’s prisons, they simply would not be safe."

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 08:28

So Fair Play for Women excluded most people serving short sentences, i.e. most people not convicted of violent crimes.
There is your skewing artefact.

No. The FPFW figures used the available data and tallied almost exactly with the MoJ figures.

The article says the MoJ are now saying there may be transgender people in prison they haven't noticed or recorded (?!?). This would skew the data and raises some interesting questions, like what biological sex are these prisoners, are they in the male or female estate and why on earth on such an important and impactful subject does the MoJ stil not hold and release accurate data?

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 08:43

The new facts the BBC's own FOIs revealed in the fact check are the extent and serious nature of the sex crimes the prisoners have committed. This is in direct contrast to the previous claims of TRAs and is the obvious story here. Which the BBC appear to have attempted to either bury or possibly if the site editor is in holiday atm have missed.

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 09:46

Important twitter thread on vulnerability of women prisoners.

mobile.twitter.com/KatharineQ/status/1029283034774863872

This hardly gets mentioned in this debate and is shocking and distressing.

"very high levels of self-harm, including women trying to disembowel themselves or bite their own flesh"

ASliceOfArcticRoll · 14/08/2018 09:50

I have called little inward grown when directed to a BBC reality check by MN posters. Or the wee, twee instructional films that proliferate on their website.

It's sad as I grew up respecting the BBC.

ASliceOfArcticRoll · 14/08/2018 09:51

"I have a"

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 10:52

"The new facts the BBC's own FOIs revealed in the fact check are the extent and serious nature of the sex crimes the prisoners have committed."

Yes inded. At least half of the sex offenders are rapists.

One thing they do note,

"Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

About 250-350 GRCs are issued each year across the UK - 4,910 since 2005."

According to the stats, around 74% of GRCs are issued to biological males.

This suggests 3633 biological males with GRCs, which suggest another 13 males with GRCs in prison - however it may be that the proportion of prisoners with GRCs is much higher, as clearly most transgender people don't have GRCs, but it's much more useful if you are in prison, because it gives you an entitlement to go where you want.

The government refuses to keep track of proper track of dangerous sex offenders and rapists, because obviously the more important thing is to respect their gender identity than to prevent sexual offences being committed.

What we know:

  • 125 identified trans inmates of which around half are sex offenders
  • unknown numbers, but at least a dozen, and probably rather more, of secret (GRC) trans inmates, for which we have no reason to assume aren't also sex offenders
  • several dozen more trans inmates (likely) who are not yet on the figures, because trans identity is clearly exploding among incarcerated males, as evinced by the figures.

Note that the BBC further assert & imply, without providing any evidence that "There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data."

In the interests of doing their job, because they're too biased, here are the data:

  • Sexual offences: 60 months (18.6% of the prison population)
  • Robbery: 45 months (9.8% of the prison population)
  • Drugs: 34 months (15.2% of the prison population)
  • Criminal damage/arson: 27 months (1.5% of the prison population)
  • Violence against the person: 26 months (25.8% of the prison population)
  • Fraud: 18 months (1.8% of the prison population)
  • Weapons possession: 15 months (3.4% of the prison population)
  • Misc: 10 months (4.6% of the prison population)
  • Theft: 9 months (13.1% of the prison population)
  • Public order: 7 months (1.7% of the prison population)

The BBC claims "there's little point having a case conference if the inmate won't be in prison long enough to benefit from it."

They don't provide any source on what "long enough" means, such as linking to PSI 17/2016.

Note that PSI 17/2016 says

"Transgender prisoners who provide full evidence of their legally affirmed or acquired gender must be transferred to the part of the prison estate consistent with their legal gender. This includes those who can demonstrate that they have commenced the process of applying for a GRC"

In other words you don't need to actually have a GRC, it's enough to have 'commenced the process of applying', whatever the fuck that means.

Again, the BBC are only interested in whitewashing so they don't discuss this.

PSI 17/2016 states:

"Transgender prisoners must be informed by PECS escort contractor’s staff that a local Transgender Case Board will be convened within three working days of reception into custody to review their care and management (including location) and they will be able to participate in and/or make their views known to this Board"

This implies that in fact the transgender case conference is not a rare thing for the lifer locked up for years, but in fact an automatic process for every transgender prisoner, to be conducted within 3 working days.

Why don't the BBC provide a source on their claims?

Are they really suggesting that the huge disparity between the minority (

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 10:59

PSI 17/2016:

"Transgender offenders must be asked their view of the part of the prison estate (i.e. male or female) that reflects the gender with which they identify. It must be explained to the offender that decisions to locate in part of the prison estate which is not in accordance with their legal gender (or best available evidence of gender where legal gender is not confirmed), can only be made following a local Transgender Case Board (either during pre-sentence report preparation or within three working days of reception into custody).

If the prisoner’s view accords with their legally recognised gender this must be recorded and they must be located accordingly. Exemptions apply to women offenders (whether or not transgender) where the risk posed to other offenders and/or staff prevents location in the female estate (Further information is contained in paragraph 6.3 and Annex B).

Where a transgender offender expresses a view of prison location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender the offender must be asked to provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify (see chart in Annex A). The strength of this evidence must be considered within the context of a Transgender Case Board together with all known risk factors before a decision is made. Each offender must be assessed on a case by case basis and discretion may be applied following a Transgender Case Board. Transgender offenders must be allowed to live in the gender they identify with during this process. (See section 5 below).
"

In other words:

(a) if you have a GRC or are even 'starting the process' of applying for one you can go into the female estate
(b) if you are legally male but state that you identify as female, a case board MUST be convened.

What the BBC may be arguing is that people who are ActuallyTrans, but legally male, are stating that they are male, and hence no case conference ever arises, since they both state that they are male and lack a GRC.

However, they don't provide any evidence for this - if you identify as female, why would you not state this on going into prison?

Otherwise they appear to be talking a load of bollocks.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2018 11:06

This implies that in fact the transgender case conference is not a rare thing for the lifer locked up for years, but in fact an automatic process for every transgender prisoner, to be conducted within 3 working days.

Yes I was thinking that. Surely for such a vulnerable prison population it would be carried out for all. Which in turn would mean the BBC are talking out of their arse.

nauticant · 14/08/2018 11:08

No matter how you cut it, the numbers strongly suggest that among the population of prisoners who are trans, there is a disproportionate number of sex offenders with a greater proportion being present than in the prison population as a whole. And these are nearly all, or all, men.

It might be difficult to quantify this exactly, but there's a definite likelihood it is there.

This wouldn't have been a problem in the past but the big new risk factor is that male trans prisoners are pushing to be allowed into the female prison estate, they are getting a great deal of popular support from some quarters, and in the face of this support politicians and the prison system seem to be turning a blind eye to the risks.

In the face of this to bleat on about "we can't be sure of the exact numbers so we can't really say anything at all" is just gobsmacking.

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 11:11

Yes I think the BBC are talking shit.

The point they might have is that the guidelines date from 2016 after the 2015 furore about violent thug Tara 'seven inch surprise' Hudson, so for EXISTING prisoners perhaps it wasn't the case.

But do that they would have to work out how many prisoners predate these guidelines, what the old guidelines (PSI 7/2011) were, and so on.

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2018 11:52

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

YY.

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 11:53

CaitlynsCat doing a much better job of factchecking than the BBC there.

if you have a GRC or are even 'starting the process' of applying for one you can go into the female estate

That is ridiculous. This would include people who were rejected for a GRC. Do we know the rejection rate?

What does 'starting the process' include?

Also do they record the numbers of prisoners 'starting the process' of applying for a GRC as trans? We know they don't record those with a GRC.

Datun · 14/08/2018 12:09

Where a transgender offender expresses a view of prison location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender the offender must be asked to provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify (see chart in Annex A). The strength of this evidence must be considered within the context of a Transgender Case Board together with all known risk factors before a decision is made.

Is there a link to Annex A? Is Annex A the elusive tick list of exactly what constitutes 'living as a woman'.

Because that, in theory, should show the entire issue up for the sexist, ignorant nonsense it is.

I'd love to know how they determine the 'strength of the evidence' they talk about.

OldCrone · 14/08/2018 12:23

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

Tara Hudson was one of those 'short sentence' prisoners. Sentenced to 12 weeks and out after 40 days. Tara managed to make quite a fuss about going to a male prison, despite Tara's short sentence.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2018 12:34

Also Tara got that short sentence for a fairly brutal assault on a barman IIRC. So if short sentences are supposed to mean innocuous and non violent they are barking up the wrong tree.

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 12:50

Actually it was a string of violent crimes, not just one. Long record.

OrchidInTheSun · 14/08/2018 13:51

The headbutt of a barman was the 8th offence iirc.

FermatsTheorem · 14/08/2018 14:05

Tara's criminal record is in fact even longer than Tara's seven inch surprise.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 14/08/2018 15:22

150,000 people signed the petition to free Tara Hudson or place them in a womans' prison (including MPs)

this was the petition started by Ceri Jenkins:
www.change.org/p/bath-magistrates-prison-govenor-of-hm-prison-bristol-british-judicial-system-stop-transgender-woman-tara-hudson-from-being-sent-to-an-all-male-prison-in-bristol

(extract)
"Trans campaigners estimate that there are between 20 and 30 trans individuals in UK prisons at any time, and that they are some of the most at-risk members of the incarceration system. In fact, transgender women in male prisons are 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than in the general population, with 59 percent reporting sexual assaults, according to a frequently cited US study.

According to Amnesty International, globally, LGBT prisoners and those perceived to be LGBT, are at risk of torture, ill-treatment and violence from other inmates as well as prison officials.

Trans people are also at a much higher risk of mental health issues than the rest of the populace. In 2014, a survey found that 48% of trans people under 26 said they had attempted suicide, and 30% said they had done so in the past year, while 59% said they had at least considered doing so. By comparison, about 6% of all 16- to 24-year-olds say they have attempted suicide, according to the Adult Psychiatry Morbidity Survey."

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/03/transgender-woman-who-was-sent-to-male-prison-is-freed

Ceri Jenkins who wrote the petition is the Equality Officer at Bath Spa University.

"Founder of the national Gender Equality Network. Stonewall School Role Model. Columnist for DIVA Magazine. Campaign lead for #ISeeTara, #RechargeAndResist, and #SelfCareAware. I've also enjoyed running an award-winning blog covering current affairs and opinion pieces, as well as contributing to the likes of The Independent, the BBC, and The Huffington Post."

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3330210-Violent-yob-41-who-stabbed-man-in-the-liver-during-noise-row-at-apartment-block-will-serve-two-year-sentence-in-an-all-womens-jail?pg=4