Does anyone else struggle to be in a mixed sex relationship whilst holding RadFem politics?

[NewNameForTodaysPost]

Just that really. Sorry for NC. Husband and I have discussed this a lot over the last decade particularly. I’m bisexual and sexually happy in this relationship. Husband is generally in the top quartile (!!? 😉) for being a good man who I like and respect. And love, too. But. My politics find it a hard fit being in a relationship with a man. I will be staying, absolutely, but wondered if anyone else feels this difficulty at times? No worries if not.
No background other than I have identified as a radfem for the last twenty years and am active in voluntary work outside my paid job in womens rights activism. Past paid work in women’s sectors e.g. VAW. It’s hard to not see men through shit coloured lenses at times. Sorry if this offends.

Interesting question, and thread, OP.

I have pretty much always known I was a feminist. I read The Women's Room and then Well of Loneliness at about 13 and was then able to label myself a Radical Feminist.

My partner and I have been together for about 15 years and have a 10 year old son. He is as much a feminist ally as it's possible to be. We have always split household tasks and child rearing equally. I don't do any "wife work". He has never assumed I'll stop work, or that my work is inferior or less important than his.

He knows he benefits from male privilege. He understands female class oppression. We agree on politics and social issues. He is gender critical.

I knew he was "the one" when we'd been dating for a couple of months and one weekend he was due to go to an old Uni friend's stag do. He was emailed the plan for the weekend and it involved a visit to a strip club. He cancelled his attendance and hasn't spoken to the bloke since. I didn't ask him to do this - he did it because he believes the exploitation of women is wrong. And he hasn't changed.

I'm not sure I'd look for another relationship if we split up. I'd have to ask to join Bowlofbabelfish's introvert feminist commune

Can you define MRA, please?

FWR is a feminist commune for the ultra introverted

I find it difficult. My DH was brought up as the only boy, he was pandered to, and can hold what I consider misogynistic views (e.g. women shouldn't get too drunk because they are at risk of being attacked, whilst he agrees it's rapists who are the problem, he thinks that will never change so women should moderate their behaviour, so we clash).

He gets the Self ID issue on the whole, but gets irritated by me 'banging on about it'. We have daughters though, so he gets very angry at the thought of male pervs abusing self ID to spy on/attack females etc.

He is very much of the mindset that feminism is 'burn your bras' and not much else, so quite old fashioned in that sense, we talk about feminist issues on a surface level type of interaction. If we get too deep into it we will row as we have very conflicting view points and he is very much NAMALT/feminism is about women being better than men.

I think it’s very hard for people who see through one lens to really ‘get’ another. I mean, I can tell myself my white ass is intersectional until the cows come home and I will still be blind to the eleventy eleven ways I perpetrated and supported racist beliefs and actions today. I know that there is probably only so far we can expect anyone who isn’t an expert by experience (in being a woman, being of colour, whatever) to understand lived experience, but for me, my anger at the group means I sometimes feel I need to go take a walk before chatting about what the kids did today.
I really resonated with the PP who said about feeling different about the group to the individual. I’ve mostly felt that, but over the last few months am finding it a little more challenging to cut those two into quite such separate spheres. Personal is political, and all that jazz.
It’s a shame that people like MRA equate my expectation of awareness and accountability with my perpetrating emotional abuse. I read somewhere that when you remove privileges from an over privileged group they experience that as abuse. I’m not sure if that is what is at play here.

It’s interesting that my spouse’s response to this feeling (we talk about this a LOT) is to read more, and to book us on to the October FILIA conference (yay there!). Not so much, I have to leave you for this hideous abuse you perpetrate when we share our feelings openly and honestly and brainstorm possible solutions. Maybe I need to give an upgrade to top decile?!

Look I’m making no value judgements about your relationship, and the fact you communicate with your partner and can see the potential issue enough to start a thread about it means your probably fine. I’m simply stating what I personally would/wouldn’t put up with. It perfectly normal and indeed healthy to take into account one another’s preferences, reciprocated both ways of course.

And my apologies if you thought I was getting at you. That was not my intention.

Not feeling got at (ta though). I just think we are coming from different places. My post was about did anyone else (I was directing inexplicitly to other women) experience this dissonance, and your posts were about what you would ‘put up with’ and whether you felt that other people’s relationships would be fine or not. I don’t mean to sound pissy, but I wasn’t seeking opinions on whether ‘we’d probably be fine’ (although I’m sure DH will be relieved to hear your take on it 😉). I was looking for other women’s subjective experience, you were looking to share an opinion on those feelings and experiences. I guess we might be coming from a subject/object position, or just a difference of how we ‘read’ what that original post was seeking. Free world. Comment away, no offence taken.

Well it’s your thread and thus entirely up to you wanted from from it, sorry if I derailed or took away from that.

No worries, it’s a thread I started, but it’s not my thread IYSWIM. You post your post and take your chances with the responses. Still interested to keep the dialogue about living in mixed sex relationships whilst radfem, specifically how people work round this or make sense of the difference

Nevertheless I don’t think it’s bad practice to put an OPs preferences in mind when posting. Sometimes it’s wise to put flesh and blood people ahead of ideaologies especially in terms of family and/or intimate relationships.

Sorry should read to not put an ops preferences in mind.

I want to believe there is hope.
If there is no hope, then I can't see how feminism works - it has to about liberating women and coexisting with men. If some women then choose not to engage or form relationships with men, that's their choice, but I'd hope many other women do manage a relationship with men with a renewed enthusiasm.
Feminism is an opportunity for men too - instead of caging women, giving them liberty could open up a whole new (better) world to men.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but....

Yes. It's a constant struggle. I have known a couple of political lesbians. I can remember one of them saying to me that when she began to understand feminism and see the way the world worked, having relationships with women was the only choice that didn't leave her feeling unbearably compromised.

If a man can be a feminist my partner would probably qualify. He doesn't feel it viscerally, as I do, though and there are times I have to explain exactly why I feel the way I do. He's a quiet, thoughtful sort of man and I feel lucky to have him in my life. I sometimes wonder if he feels the same way because I certainly expect more of than many women do of their partners.

Here's a question...

Do people believe you naturally are more akin to another woman simply because they are a woman, or can the overlap between men and women result in a specific man and a specific woman being more akin?

I can feel a million miles from some other men, and far more akin to some women, some other men are closer to me than others, and some are like another species.

Then there's this big one - for many of us, we are drawn to the opposite sex and despite some of our differences, that draw is considerable sometimes. Love is a strange thing and we can love something or someone we do not always like. I don't know what to make of that, it makes life rather complex, but it does seem to be something real.

Something inside me says we are supposed to co-exist and find pleasure in each other, but what we currently have is a pale imitation of that. I can't believe the solution is homosexuality. That's not decrying homosexuality, I just can't really believe it's the answer for all - which must mean we do have to reconcile feminism with heterosexual relationships. They have to co-exist, surely?

Do people believe you naturally are more akin to another woman simply because they are a woman, or can the overlap between men and women result in a specific man and a specific woman being more akin?

Interesting question.

I think in the context of the thread I identify with what women are saying about preferring female company after a certain age. For me that wouldn’t be sexual because I’m straight. However what I have found is that men who meet my criteria are few and far between (and I don’t think I’m picky, my criteria are basically decency, humour, respect, equal partnership, intelligence. I didn’t think that was too much to ask.)

I think that women just get fed up to be honest. Child bearing, child rearing or for those without children just the passage of time show up the structural inequalities. Far too many men have their cake and eat it. Far too few men do their share domestically, far too many women end up physically wrung out by pregnancy and childbearing, shafted at work then ending up doing everything at home too.

That sounds very pessimistic but look at the threads in relationships - so, so many women doing everything. So many with stunted careers, so many left for a younger model at the end of it. So many dads just walking out, having to be chased for pennies.

And no, NAMALT, we know that. Good men exist, we know theydo! But I can understand why women are saying they feel more akin to other women. Because women get it so much more.

I’m in what I consider to be a very equal partnership with a brilliant bloke. Even then with us trying really hard to be equal I’ve found that two physically awful pregnancies and one awful birth (waiting for the next next week argh) have physically knackered me. My career is stalled. And that’s with us trying really hard.

If I was married to someone who thought women weren’t oppressed, or didn’t pull their weight with house, kids and emotional load or NAMALTed me when I talked about these issues, I’d be out the door.

And there’s a whole treatise to be written on how women refusing men are seen as a threat to men, either individually or in a commune type setting.

Oh look, a male poster sharing his unsolicited opinions and demanding all the attention on a thread about feminism

Goodness me, that’s never been done before! And certainly not by the very same male poster!

🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

This is a brilliant question, OP, and a great thread. Yes, I feel a disconnect, though not as much as I did previously. I’m bisexual too btw, but the majority of my serious relationships have been with men.

I have a brilliant husband, and he’s definitely an ally. He is thoughtful, kind, genuine, and never deliberately misogynistic. He’s against porn, prostitution (in all its guises), and he’s gender critical. He listens to me, and he rants about this stuff too.

But still, but still. Yes, there’s a disconnect, because he will never know what this feels like. It’s personal and it frequently hurts because we are women and we can’t change that fact and he is not and he can’t change that fact either.

In the past, I’ve wondered if we would work, mostly back at the start where he was struggling to see my position on our sexualised society (he was already anti-porn and anti-prostitution, however, and thankfully it didn’t take much reading/research to show him how everything is sexualised and why that’s bad and why we should be fighting it). We got into some blazing rows, mostly because of my sheer frustration that someone I loved didn’t see how fucked up the treatment my sex received in this society was.

We dealt with it and we are fine now. There are still days I get frustrated he can’t ever feel it like I do. It forms a slight gap between us. But you can’t change that, and we’ve come to respect where we differ.

Would I do it again, if we split up? No. I’d leave men well alone. lol

Something inside me says we are supposed to co-exist and find pleasure in each other, but what we currently have is a pale imitation of that. I can't believe the solution is homosexuality. That's not decrying homosexuality, I just can't really believe it's the answer for all - which must mean we do have to reconcile feminism with heterosexual relationships. They have to co-exist, surely?

Would that something inside you be like the something inside that tells a man he's a woman when he fancies wearing lacy underwear?

Lots of evidence from places like Japan, where the birthrate is plummeting and a large proportion of under-30s aren't having sex, that women who can earn their own living are thinking twice about marrying.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-sex-problem-demographic-time-bomb-birth-rates-sex-robots-fertility-crisis-virgins-romance-porn-a7831041.html

Women say it's because men are into porn and not the reality of relationships with women. It used to be true that the more educated a woman was, the higher the likelihood that she'd be child-free and single. There'll be people better informed than me out there who'll be able to say whether that's true or not.

I'm now in my 50s and if my partner and I decide to split that's me done with men. I look at the my friends' husbands and partners and... well, no, it's not going to happen.

Really interesting thread, particularly reflecting on people feeling their relationship is equal but they still struggle a bit. Because we have a complete reversal of conventional roles in our family I find it quite easy being in a mixed sex relationship as a feminist. My dh has been the primary care giver and financially dependent on me for 15 years. The nature of our roles means that I am the one who has to work to maintain equality (checking myself and my behaviours) rather than him. He gave up his career and mine has flourished to maturity. He has lost status while I have gained it. I lead. He carries the mental load. He buys my sanitary towels and cards for my family. He says that he has never been happier and is fully satisfied as he finds raising our children rewarding and enjoys managing our home life but I have seen him lose some confidence. When I rage about toxic masculinity it wouldn't occur to him for one single moment that I included him in my complaints, because his role prevents him from being part of that culture. I had to fight against sexism in my workplace as I progressed my career and I still do but because of his role he does truly understand. His role is not valued by many other men and he has experienced the gradual loss of status in society. So we walk together in this. If we had had financial and career equality I would definitely have struggled, given the additional challenges I would have faced to achieve that as a woman.

Would that something inside you be like the something inside that tells a man he's a woman when he fancies wearing lacy underwear?

No it wouldn't. I don't know how a man can know he feels like a woman. What does a woman feel like? I think that's a misguided belief of some transpeople that they don't feel right as a man, and deduce (wrongly) that they must be women inside.
I think it's misguided, but I'll respect their choice to live as a woman, without actually 'being' a woman.

But in terms of men and women co-existing - that's a different matter. So far, as a biological species, it's been absolutely necessary for us to co-exist, or face extinction. That might change very soon.

But, the co-existence we currently have is functional (at best) for many, but it's not great co-existence. We aren't equal partners, and whilst one half is oppressed, how can it ever be a truly mutually rewarding co-existence? I don't think it can whilst one half isn't equal.

But is it wrong to have feelings that it could be and should be better? that the solution doesn't have to be women vs men? Don't we all have internal feelings, fears and hopes?

I'm with you Torn and my dh and I found our answer. It meant some significant sacrifices on his part.

It is a good question/thread.

Dh isn't a feminist. Our marriage has many feminist red checkmarks against it. I realised a few years ago that his worldview is heavily influenced by his grandparents, who lived in a very different place and time (they were dirt poor farmers in a Soviet country - some traditional roles but quite egalitarian due to circumstance)
Realising this has helped me to make sense of my marriage immensely. I was heavily influenced by growing up in a domestic violence situation and a mother who chased after (and dragged her kids around with her) stupid men. We married as starry eyed teens.

My radfemness is more recent than my marriage (15+ years) and dh is handling it pretty well. He may not be a feminist but he does absolutely respect my intelligence and will give my side of the heated debate fair consideration. He does have an angry kneejerk reaction of namalt when I bring up rape culture - we've made some progress on that but it's pretty deeply ingrained!

He is a good guy and I love him very much, he loves me, and our family is, without question, his top priority. Not a bad foundation.

He is a good guy and I love him very much, he loves me, and our family is, without question, his top priority. Not a bad foundation.

That's the situation I'm in. DH is clever, funny, kind, a respectful father and a good man. He doesn't have the angry knee-jerk reactions about rape culture (if anything, he is more switched onto it that me in some ways.) He tends to know about and be angry about news stories like the murder of Laura Huteson, and thinks it inherently wrong that as women we are expected to moderate our behaviour to keep ourselves safe. Like a PP he has left stag dos and ended friendships due to friends' strip club and/or prostitution usage. He is great with challenging gender norms with our DC and never has the little slips of the tongue that belie ingrained misogynistic views eg "lady doctor" or "hysterical". I am equal in our household.

However, he has told me I'll be on the wrong side of history for being GC, and that is deeply ingrained in some dodgy views that a man wouldn't go through the "shame" of wearing a dress or being perceived as a woman if he didn't have true gender dysphoria. Unfortunately I am a crier and when I get frustrated or angry I cry, so I'm not good at robust debates. Ironically, I can't express my views that gender is a social construct because I am socialised to hate confrontation! We don't talk about that any more. I truly believe he is one of those annoying men who will only start to get it when "his" wife or daughters are affected.

I started to get switched on to feminism after a sexual assault that happened to me aged 17 on a train (which until recently I'd just thought of as a bit of groping) and when I've recounted it DH doesn't understand why I'd not loudly said something or sought help. I explained that I was really upset because when I got off the train, a group of women my mum's age had said "We saw what happened, we were keeping an eye out" - as a grown up woman now, I do understand why they didn't address the drunk, large man with his group of mates while in a closed environment, but back then I just felt horribly let down by adults I felt should have helped me. DH doesn't get why they didn't step in AT ALL. Him and his mates - middle aged men - would! We also had a very interesting chat about me having left a queue in Asda due to a man in a motorbike hat standing very, very close to me in the queue. DH didn't get it - at 6'3" and 15 stone, why would he?! How can he understand my fears and life experiences when they are nothing like anything he's ever experienced?