Does anyone else struggle to be in a mixed sex relationship whilst holding RadFem politics?

[NewNameForTodaysPost]

Just that really. Sorry for NC. Husband and I have discussed this a lot over the last decade particularly. I’m bisexual and sexually happy in this relationship. Husband is generally in the top quartile (!!? 😉) for being a good man who I like and respect. And love, too. But. My politics find it a hard fit being in a relationship with a man. I will be staying, absolutely, but wondered if anyone else feels this difficulty at times? No worries if not.
No background other than I have identified as a radfem for the last twenty years and am active in voluntary work outside my paid job in womens rights activism. Past paid work in women’s sectors e.g. VAW. It’s hard to not see men through shit coloured lenses at times. Sorry if this offends.

TransExclusionaryMRA if you equate being expected to acknowledge that all males benefit indirectly from the oppression and abuse of women with ‘being constantly got at’, you’d be very welcome to walk out my door, no need to be afraid.
The ways that men perpetuate inequality either directly or by not calling others out for it is far wider than only ‘catcalling or rape’, and I expect men to make themselves aware of and accountable for their part in that. If you are male (not sure from that post) and feel that you don’t benefit or unknowingly contribute towards our unequal culture, you are missing part of the picture.

Ooh thanks for starting this thread OP, it’s something I think about quite a lot. I’m straight, and love my STBDH very much. He’s a feminist ally and very much on board with GC thinking. But sometimes I find the fact that he sees the world through a man’s eyes really, REALLY frustrating - particularly since it hammers home that even the most sympathetic men can never really ‘get it’. And I’ve got to accept this, because fundamentally sexuality isn’t a choice.

It’s really tricky isn’t it? Sexuality aside, it doesn’t matter that much that I’m not straight because I really do love this man and choose to be here for as long as it makes sense for us both (16 years so far and no end in sight 👌🏾), it’s just odd to be in a relationship with someone, however supportive, however ‘woke’, than fundamentally is never going to see the world through my lens.

"The worst instance was when he was watching a documentary about Monty Python and I suddenly realised that ALL the talking heads were male. I kept mentioning it and he got cross."

I recently heard Miriam Margoles talking abut the utter sexist shittiness of the Pyrhons. I felt as if someone had killed my hamster.

I find it helps me in a way....if I wasn't with DH it would be so easy to fall into the 'all men are shits' brigade.

But that lets them off too easily...as though it should be expected that men are somehow less able to be decent human beings.

My DH reminds me that men are perfectly capable of being great and that I'm not wrong to be able to expect that other men are also capable of achieving the same standards of decency and humanity (rather than 'oh well...that's men for you').

In summary I absolutely love / admire / respect specific individual men in my life while hating the patriarchy and men as a 'class'.

I do think there is a certain amount of internalised privilege with all men, even if just to the extent that they have little insight into the frequency of bullshit/misogyny you have to encounter as a woman but the men I love / admire / respect are open to me pointing it out to them.

I respectfully disagree either that all men benefit from the oppression of women, nor that all women are oppressed.

Living up to your name, aren't you MRA?

Who the fuck do you think you are?

I think all women suffer from attempts at oppression. A fraction might be fortunate enough to evade most of those attempts, but they won't evade them all. They might not even be aware of some of them, but it's still oppression. Even queens aren't immune.

However, either people believe that some men and women can coexist and complement each other, or they don't.
If they do believe it, then it's a matter of finding the right partner, accepting that it could be a long search, and maybe some don't want to keep searching for a needle in a haystack.

A good man isn't a perfect man. Vice versa for women. Some of those imperfections needn't be a result of our politics though. A short concentration pan needn't be misogynist. A wave of anger needn't be feminism. Sometimes it's just humanity.

Sexuality aside, it doesn’t matter that much that I’m not straight because I really do love this man and choose to be here for as long as it makes sense for us both (16 years so far and no end in sight 👌🏾)

I’ve just re-read what I put, I didn’t mean that since you’re bi not straight that it makes any difference, sorry if it came across like that. Purely that whenever I hit these types of issues with OH that I think how much easier it would be if I was a lesbian (tongue in cheek - I know that our heteronormative society means that this isn’t in any way the case!).

Just a fairly average imperfect human being. And you?

I may not be right, I fully accept my capacity for error, but when working within the confines of my current knowledge/understanding as it
stands I disagree. Make of that what you wish.

And yes all men benefit from female oppression.
I am able to establish an uninterrupted career and still have children.
I am less likely to be considered a risky hire in my mid 20s to mid 30s.
I am more likely to be seen as a leader by other men than a woman is (and men will largely be the ones promoting me).
That does mean every man WILL get every benefit, but it means we automatically get those increased odds simply because we are male. We benefit from patriarchy. Only an idiot would think otherwise.

*doesn't mean

We benefit from patriarchy. Only an idiot would think otherwise.

You get it 👍

So you wouldn’t take a break in your career to look after your own children? Very illuminating indeed. I don’t think you are quite the feminist ally you seem to think you are.

@TransExclusionaryMRA

Can you give an example of a woman you know of (in RL or in the media) that isn't in any way oppressed by the patriarchy and on what basis you think she isn't oppressed?

I'm not being goady...just interested as I disagree but I'm interested in understanding what the basis is that you would feel someone isn't oppressed...

So you wouldn’t take a break in your career to look after your own children? Very illuminating indeed. I don’t think you are quite the feminist ally you seem to think you are.

Don't attempt to twist words.
I actually said 'I am ABLE to'. It's a choice open to me that is not open to women. It's isn't about the personal choices we make, it's about the opportunities that patriarchy affords us. We don't always take them, but they are there.

Argue with me, but don't misrepresent what I said. That's a wankers trick.

Patriarchy puts men first. We are men. We benefit from it. I can't spell it out any clearer.

So you wouldn’t take a break in your career to look after your own children?

Ok, I’ll bite. The point isn’t whether or not an individual man or woman takes a career break to look after children. A 30 year old woman will still be treated as a risk by employers even if they remain childless throughout their life, voluntarily or otherwise. The presumption is that a man will not, so will often be treated more favourably even if he wants to take advantage of shared parental leave.

Because women are oppressed because of their biology, and judged because society’s expectation is for them to be default child-rearer. No woman can escape that, and no man fails to benefit from it.

And a man who stays working does betray feminism. A man who chooses to do so unilaterally does.
If a man and women as a partnership choose that path, it's the same as a lesbian couple choosing one to remain working if they so wish.
Is it really so difficult to understand it's about the choices available and for women, their choices are restricted. Men first means women second.

*doesn't betray...
Damn phone correction

We had my husband do the majority of the MAT leave for our children because we knew the statistics showing the impact on women’s long term salary after a career break versus the impact on men’s meant that he would be less financially penalised for the break. That meant that even though I wanted to stay for the break more than he did, our decision was directly affected by inequalities.

MRA It took the men in my life a bit of reading to understand the things you seem to be struggling with. Try typing in something like ‘all men benefit from the rape of women’. You’ll find your way to Dworkin who you’ll either be enlightened by, or hugely offended. You’ll doubtless also find lots of writing by pissed off men who think that feminists should be burned at the stake, so something for everyone 😉

TornFromTheInside Yup, someone was definitely on form the day they taught Feminism 101 👏🏼. Thanking you for amplifying our message.

Spend 30 minutes in a busy coffee shop 'people watching'.
If you can't spot 10 examples of subtle female oppression, and some not too subtle, then you've got your eyes closed.

It's there if you look.
Once you see it, you can't stop seeing it.

I’m familiar with Dworkin, which given the abuse she suffered earlier in her life, and her experiences as a sex worker I think her thinking was remarkably measured to be perfectly honest. She’s the feminist that wrote the case that all PIV is rape isn’t she? Which I read as more of an excercise in thinking than a serious argument (although my interpretation may be wrong), but encourages thinking about sex from the perspective of female pleasure. I actually think it starts a healthy discussion around why pumping women full of hormones that often diminish both the sex drive and further increase the risk of health complications may not be the healthy default, as it seems to centre the male sex drive which is never going to work in the long run for either women nor men.

@umpteennamechanges I’d be more than happy to have the discussion around oppression, although we need to nail down what we mean by the term going in. There is a problem around definition as whilst authoritarian oppression is well understood there isn’t a meaningful scholarly consensus on what is traditionally thought of as subtle oppressions across socioeconomic, political, legal, cultural, and institutional grounds. So much so that MRA’s like me and radical trans activists can utilise the same postmodern framework to just as compelling a case for our own oppression as it all default back to this “lived experience” subjectivist lens.

My suspicion is it’s the use of this post modernist framework that leaves us in our current predicament. I will say that despite this and despite my name I do respect the contribution of feminist intellectuals particularly around the issues of rape and sex work and I would say those thinkers are directly responsible for my current lean on those particular topics.

I think the way women and men operate is deeply dysfunctional (on a macro level) and in many ways it’s going to take a lot of very clever people (both men and women) to work the human race out of it, and no society has ever nailed quite right so that tells me the problem is among the most complex we as a species face, and as appealing as the oppressor/oppressed narrative is it way too simple and reductive to my way of thinking. No matter how appealing it may be emotionally. Although part of me secretly would wish it was really that simple. I do not think it is.

Sorry for taking up so much space in this reply I’m happy to carry on finer points of the discussion in another thread, because I do not what wish to derail the thread at hand. My initial point is that in ones own intimate relationships everyone should feel supported and respected, and if I was in as emotionally close position of that nature with a woman and she couldn’t then separate men as a class with me as an individual to the point I was being made to feel constantly guilty and on eggshells thanks to the behaviour of other men I’m sorry I’d define that as being emotionally abusive and leave. If that is really so contentious a point so be it.