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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

The science of transgender / gender identity

86 replies

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 12:30

I'm feeling a little wary stepping in here, but I wanted to ask a question about transgender and science. I've been following many posts here, and although I don't spend too much of my time thinking about transgender issues, I'm in the camp where I broadly think the world is going a bit mad about transgender. It's not something I can really understand and get my head around, and I'm very opposed to the idea of self-identification. If I'm honest, I struggle with the idea of men who feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, and vice versa, because I broadly see a world where it's fine for a man to have "feminine" traits, and vice versa.

However, in challenging my views, I was looking for some summary of the scientific evidence for gender identity and I came across a few links, and there does seem evidence that there is something genuine for a small proportion of people who have characteristics of "female" brains, and so on.

e.g. sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Has anyone got a good summary of what the scientific evidence is on gender identity, and does it influence your views on the current discussions. Thanks a lot, and please be gentle!

OP posts:

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/08/2018 15:09

Here’s the thread where neuroscientists take apart the MRI studies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3196135-Scientists-please-gather-round

Let me see if I can dredge up the one where we developmental scientists/geneticists take the nature oped apart...

Datun · 10/08/2018 15:10

What do psychologists and paediatricians say about the phenomenon?

The memorandum of understanding is what has started the problem. It means affirmation at all costs.

Original poster

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 15:11

This is patriarchy in action. You disagreeing with the trans ideology and being a woman on the left is a perfectly natural position to hold.

I couldn't agree more.

OP posts:

ReluctantCamper · 10/08/2018 15:11

Datun, Bowl

am in awe of your patience

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/08/2018 15:12

The science ought to be pretty darn compelling before medical intervention. Instead, we learn if doctors fail to affirm then the child will commit suicide. Is it this threat that drives healthcare professionals?

Totally agree. However as we discussed the other day, the lobby groups behind this are actively changing the medical definitions involved and thus changing the standard of care.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3328210-Follow-the-money-who-is-funding-the-US-transborg

georgefaynes comments are excellent

Original poster

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 15:14

Let me see if I can dredge up the one where we developmental scientists/geneticists take the nature oped apart...

Thanks a lot!

OP posts:

Melamin · 10/08/2018 15:21

Your post is entirely correct melamin

(There - Officially peer reviewed) ;)

Thank you for that . I am trying to make a dress and read this at the same time and have cut a hole in the sleeve but now I know I have my priorities right

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/08/2018 15:35

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3287119-Had-a-reply-from-CRUK-re-cervix-havers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236288-Excellent-article-on-the-problem-of-transphobia

There will be more if you use advanced search.

Basically the article goes through some very interesting examples of errors of sexual development and that’s fine - these occur, just like many other developmental syndromes. They’re fascinating. They tell us quite a bit about the things that can go wrong and normal processes.
Where the article goes wrong is by then asserting that the presence of such disorders means that sex is a spectrum. It isn’t. That’s not a logical conclusion.

There are multiple disorders of limb development. There are people born with no limbs, one fused lower limb, duplications of all parts of the structure. That tells us fascinating things about limb fields in the embryo and how limbs develop but it doesn’t imply limb number is a spectrum.

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/08/2018 15:36

Oh darn melamin! Hope it’s fixable

Melamin · 10/08/2018 15:49

It's alright Bowl. I have made a new one and it is better. Time to make tea now

catkind · 10/08/2018 16:37

Where's the proof that transwomen are women? (Looking at you, Penny Mordaunt)
Speaking as a mathematician, you can't even attempt to prove all A are B until you have defined A and B. Working definition of A seems to be "Anyone who says they are" and B "it's complicated".

ReluctantCamper · 10/08/2018 16:39

catkind

heresyandwitchcraft · 10/08/2018 16:43

Thank you to the posters on this thread for explaining this complicated issue so well.

silentcrow · 10/08/2018 16:44

Let me see if I can dredge up the one where we developmental scientists/geneticists take the nature oped apart...

I missed that and would be very grateful if you manage to find it! What jumped out at me from the article is something I was taught 20-odd years ago - "do NOT muddle the genetics of mice and men". Mouse studies shouldn't be read as anything but "well, that works in mice so let's see if it works in humans", not "these mammalian systems are the same". This something that drives me crackers about popular science writing.

OP, the way you feel is very common and by no means new - I've been digging back through the gender critical subforum on reddit (I know, reddit's usually a cesspool but that sub feels like the only other sane place on this subject!), and this has been going on for years. There are hundreds of people coming from a left/liberal/live and let live angle, realising what an authoritarian, misogynistic, narcissistic - and worryingly powerful - movement it's become.

SimonBridges · 10/08/2018 16:55

Of course some people say that there is no physical issue with someone who is trans, rather it is an entirely mental issue.
Rather like someone who has anorexia, they look in the mirror and see someone who is fat, no one would suggest they really are fat.

SimonBridges · 10/08/2018 16:58

That’s is what some people say, I’m not saying that’s what I think.

Datun · 10/08/2018 17:08

There are hundreds of people coming from a left/liberal/live and let live angle, realising what an authoritarian, misogynistic, narcissistic - and worryingly powerful - movement it's become.

^^This.

You always have to ask yourself why are feminists the people who object the most?

Feminist who are traditionally left-wing, liberal, inclusive.

Transgenderism is the ultimate in patriarchal control. When men, any man, can claim to be a woman, and therefore speak on behalf of women, represent women, shame them, tell them what to say, how to think, what they can and can't accept, how their boundaries will be re-written, and what constitutes the very definition of woman, you know you're in bloody trouble.

Although, I don't think this is an issue between left and right wing politics. This affects women everywhere, regardless of their political affiliation.

thebewilderness · 10/08/2018 19:41

You could find the answer with a simple search. There are dozens of these OPs posted on Feminism and Women's Rights that have been answered over and over. I wish MNHQ would give transgender advocates a board of their own so these repetitive requests for women to go over the same ground yet again could be moved there.

Original poster

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 19:52

You could find the answer with a simple search

Or I could ask, and those willing to reply could do so, as many helpful posters have done so.

I wish MNHQ would give transgender advocates a board of their own so these repetitive requests for women to go over the same ground yet again could be moved there.

I assume you're mistakenly assuming I'm a transgender advocate. Looking back at my posts, it's really obvious that I'm not.

OP posts:

thebewilderness · 10/08/2018 19:58

I have made no assumptions about you. I was addressing the frequency of the OPs like yours on FWR requesting that women perform this service.
We have asked for posts to be pinned so that people with this same question can have it served to them. To no avail.

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 20:03

bewilderness, I don't think that would happen in the current climate, as a sticky thread covering these oft dealt with topics would imply an official backing to a point of view perhaps. It would compromise the 'neutrality' of the MN hosts etc

Original poster

LayOfTheLand · 10/08/2018 20:03

I felt it was fairly implicit. As I've pointed out above, I'm new to thinking about this issue deeply as a lot of people are, and although I'm pretty sceptical about trans ideology I'm asking questions. It's a discussion board, and if people don't want to reply, that's their choice.

OP posts:

thebewilderness · 10/08/2018 20:11

It would compromise the 'neutrality' of the MN hosts etc

You are quite right.
There are always some here with the patience to respond to JAQing off, and I admire them for it.

Takinrujomu · 10/08/2018 20:13

Not sure if the article below will help...

I read it and couldn't believe how far reaching this issue is..

medium.com/@sue.donym1984/inauthentic-selves-the-modern-lgbtq-movement-is-run-by-philanthropic-astroturf-and-based-on-junk-d08eb6aa1a4b

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 20:13

'JAQing off'

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