The science of transgender / gender identity

[LayOfTheLand]

I'm feeling a little wary stepping in here, but I wanted to ask a question about transgender and science. I've been following many posts here, and although I don't spend too much of my time thinking about transgender issues, I'm in the camp where I broadly think the world is going a bit mad about transgender. It's not something I can really understand and get my head around, and I'm very opposed to the idea of self-identification. If I'm honest, I struggle with the idea of men who feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, and vice versa, because I broadly see a world where it's fine for a man to have "feminine" traits, and vice versa.

However, in challenging my views, I was looking for some summary of the scientific evidence for gender identity and I came across a few links, and there does seem evidence that there is something genuine for a small proportion of people who have characteristics of "female" brains, and so on.

e.g. sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Has anyone got a good summary of what the scientific evidence is on gender identity, and does it influence your views on the current discussions. Thanks a lot, and please be gentle!

OP there are numerous threads on these boards that will help you. May I suggest you have a look through those before asking others to give up time to do your research for you. Failing that, I'm sure Google would throw up some links for you to follow.

the link you shared has a lovely rainbow scale showing intersex as the mid point between male and female. which is factually incorrect

That's rather disingenuous when that was in a link you posted.

I shared the top link that came up on google about "the science of transgender", I'm not making an argument here, I'm looking for scientific research, rather than what comes up top on google. If what I shared was not scientific, great.

For example, Cordelia Fine's book sounds interesting. Thanks

This may help;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3139168--Transwomen-are-women?pg=4#prettyPhoto

IWearPurple Tue 16-Jan-18 08:12:15
The main drivers behind the "male brains are different to female brains" are two men. Simon Baron-Cohen (e.g. www.theguardian.com/books/2003/may/17/featuresreviews.guardianreview6) and Steven Pinker (e.g. newrepublic.com/article/68044/sex-ed).

For the studies, with small samples sizes, who say they have found differences between male and female brains (post mortem), the following main problems exist:

• we're talking about samples at quite a gross scale of analysis, rather than a fine scale of analysis.
• small sample sizes tend to find differences between groups because small sample sizes mean outliers have a strong influence on results.
• p

May I suggest you have a look through those before asking others to give up time to do your research for you. Failing that, I'm sure Google would throw up some links for you to follow.

My point of asking on this board, is that I am sure there are well-informed people who can point me towards their recommendations of good science, if they wish to, rather than a blind google, which as I've shown is flawed.

lots of links above LayOfTheLand, off you pop and read those

should keep you busy for a while

come back with questions when you're done

and then, I bet you can't run to that tree before I count to ten.

academic.oup.com/cercor/article/28/8/2959/4996558

Here is a recent research article. I have attached one of the figures which illustrates Barackobamas point about normal distributions very well.(academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/118682705/bhy109f01.tif)

Obviously this study doesn't include specifically identified trans groups.

OP, there are no studies that show characteristics form a female brain and a male brain. It's impossible. Because for every woman who has a certain set of characteristics I can show you 10 women who don't. And vice versa.

There may well be studies that show a person has a disassociation with their body. Which would account for gender dysphoria. And I don't think anyone disputes that there may be a biological or neurological reason.

But it can't show a female brain in a male body, because that's impossible.

We categorise people based on sex, and sex is a description of their reproductive function. That's all it is. A description.

Gender is described (including by trans groups everywhere) as a set of society imposed expectations.

These are imposed by society on the basis of someone's sex.

Boys and girls are then socialised differently.

It's the socialisation that causes the problem is which is why radical feminists are called gender 'critical'.

The real-life problems arise because if you decide to categorise people based on what they say, rather than what they do and what their bodies do, you put women and children in danger.

So even IF someone discovered a female brain in a male body in some kind of science-fiction feature, you still have to deal with the fact that that body is male and the socialisation is male.

If there wasn't an inherent power dynamic between men and women which damages women, it wouldn't matter. No one would care.

and then, I bet you can't run to that tree before I count to ten.

I feel that was somehow a little snide.

@Cigarstring, thanks a lot, very interesting. I can see that at least in physical terms, the distributions show the extent of the overlaps very clearly.

Thanks @Datun. It's a good post. Right in my OP, I put "female" brain in quotes, because I'm skeptical of the claims made around it, and I agree with most of what you say.

I'm interested, because I think like many people, I'm broadly on the left, politically, and I have a lot of left-wing friends who are talking about transgender issues more and more, and I'm trying to get my head around what it all means, even though I think I broadly agree with the consensus position in this forum.

There are two sexes, male and female.

Anyone intersex has one of a number of different disorders of sexual development but they are all either Male or female. There is no third sex, intersex does not mean ‘half way between the two’ not is it a separate sex.

Sex in humans is immutable. It cannot change, regardless of surgical modifications, or hormone treatment. Your sex is coded into every nucleate cell of your body from conception.

Gender is the set of expectations a society hangs upon those of each sex. As such it’s a nebulous thing with no real scientific or legal definition, because basically it’s a belief system. And you cannot codify belief. Well you can, but if you want that go and live in a theocracy - there are some charming ones to choose from.

There is no way of telling from someone's brain whether they are male or female. There are differences in sizes brain and parts of the brain of adults, like there are differences in heights and size of muscle. These fall within the normal range for each sex and overlap a long way. Just like height does. They work the same way.

There is no way of telling someone's sexuality from the brain. Most gay people and probably everyone else, would prefer it to stay that way, given attempts in the past to identify and annihilate gay people.

Disorders of sexual development are like other disorders. Some come from chromosomal mix ups like huntingdons and downs, and affect the parts that the chromosome contain information for. Some from incomplete development as the fetus grows. Like people who have fingers that are 'missing'

There are plenty of opportunities for things to go wrong from conception onwards. It is amazing that we make it as far as we do.

Read Bowl's posts over mine - my biology is rusty and Bowl is an expert.

It's interesting that you say you're on the left politically OP. One of the problems in this area is that science is expected to comply with political beliefs. For example "transwomen are women" is a political standpoint and accordingly the science must follow.

This reminds me of Soviet science and Nazi science.

No snidey-ness intended. Just a pointer of what happens when people start using political thought to control scientific understanding.

LayOfTheLand

Talking about it all as a concept might be interesting, I agree, but it's red herring, in my opinion.

Because the fact remains that women's rights are not based on the way an individual thinks. They're based on the class analysis of behaviour (in terms of sex segregation). And biological reality (in terms of maternity rights, abortion etc.)

Men transitioning does not alter their male pattern behaviour, nor their male pattern criminality.

The problem has arisen because there are two types of transwomen. Homosexual transsexuals and AGP individuals.

Not only are they completely different, it has increased the cohort massively. Far larger than anyone had imagined when they wrote the laws.

And, in turn, that has reduced the criteria necessary. Which is why you now get any number of predators, men's rights activists, etc, flocking to the movement.

If you don't have to have any kind of surgery, no kind of diagnosis and can wear a three-piece suit, hobnail boots and sport a beard, there are obviously going to be problems.

Here is a thread that explains it and points to resources.

It's a little out of date, because even in the last few months, things have moved on.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

The article linked in the OP uses the term "assigned biological sex". I think this shows that the author of that blog article is biased in favour of transgender ideology and it shows that she has accepted the idea that biology is a social construct. She is entitled to her opinion, but I don't agree with the writer.

In past decades, intersex people have often had their sex assigned at birth. In recent years, with improvements in medical technology, even the sex of intersex people is increasingly often observed at birth not assigned at birth.

Everyone else is not assigned a sex at birth, their sex is observed.

Almost no intersex people are transgender.
Almost all transgender people are not intersex.
The overlap between transgender people and intersex people is tiny. People who are both intersex and transgender are members of one of the smallest categories of humans.

Gender identity and attempts to change a transgender person's body to what that person believes is that person's "true" biological sex will not change the biological outcome of sexual intercourse. Only an egg fertilised by a sperm will create human life.

Pregnancy can occur when sexual intercourse permits the biological process of fertilisation.

Contraception can interfere with the biological outcome of sexual intercourse, but even contraception is based on putting up barriers against actual biological processes. Contraception is not about barriers against gender identity.

It feels surreal to me that I feel that I have to write such things on a parenting forum. We know how babies are made, don't we?

Thanks for the links. My point about being on the left is that largely speaking, the TRA stuff does seem more allied with the left, and so I have friends / colleagues who are inclined to take a more favourable view to Trans rights. I don't imagine the Tories are to het up about this. There's no danger of me heading down some path of Lysenkoism.

Many people are saying "there are two sexes" and that's it, but reading Nature, I came across this article, which seems to suggest otherwise. Ok, I fit within the vast majority where this is true, but I'm interested in where the research stands on this.

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Your post is entirely correct melamin :)

(There - Officially peer reviewed) ;)

I'd be interested to read what any pro-transgender evolutionary biologists think about:

(1) what is the evolutionary benefit of gender identity?
(2) what is the evolutionary benefit of gender dysphoria?
(2) what is the evolutionary benefit if sex is a spectrum rather than a binary?

Does anyone know of any articles that analyse these questions?

@Datun, what are AGP individuals?

Oh for the love of god that bloody nature editorial. Are we going to have the pink and blue brain MRI one next?

Do I have the will to go through this for the twenty third time? I’m not sure I do tbh... it’s hot. I’m not well.

It’s an OP ED piece. Like you get in the Mail. It’s not a peer reviewed bit of science. It’s someones opinion, and like many Op-Ed’s it’s clickbaity.

There are two sexes. I’m actually not sure I can be arsed going through it all again - a swift advanced search on it and these boards will show you one of the other 22 times I and others have gone through this.

Sex isn’t a spectrum. There are no pink and blue brains. Everyone with an intersex condition is Male or female with some developmental errors.

This is GCSE and pre GCSE level stuff.

Sorry to see this thread go all wobbly. I think it is key to unearthing why healthcare professionals are so keen to affirm beliefs - particularly in children and teenage girls.

Has anyone, for instance, made a study of small boys who are so adamant that they are really a girl?

What do psychologists and paediatricians say about the phenomenon? Do they all agree? (I recall a paediatrition being sacked in Canada for having different views.)

The science ought to be pretty darn compelling before medical intervention. Instead, we learn if doctors fail to affirm then the child will commit suicide. Is it this threat that drives healthcare professionals?

And on another subject: Where's the proof that transwomen are women? (Looking at you, Penny Mordaunt)

Even the entirely odious Riley Dennis has a video laying out that there is no useful evidence to prove the blue/pink brain theory.

LayOfTheLand

Being on the left and feeling conflicted is a subject that is raised here almost daily.

Women who have historically championed minorities, LGBT rights, the disabled, people of colour, suddenly finding themselves wrongfooted.

Being called bigots.

You have to remember that feminists have a finely honed radar when it comes to misogyny. They spotted the problem with this a long time ago.

They have drilled down into this issue, read as much about it as they can, including the studies, reports, science, etc. Many of them are scientists themselves, endocrinologists, geneticists, etc.

Feminists are analysts, not bigots.

The reason why women are disadvantaged is because of the inherent power dynamic between men and women. Which is consistently and relentlessly upheld by men.

This new issue is also being upheld by men.

Where are the transmen beating men at sport, clamouring to get into male prisons, campaigning for access to men's toilets? Where are the transmen telling men that prostate cancer is exclusionary? Where are the transmen insisting gay men sleep with them?

This is patriarchy in action. You disagreeing with the trans ideology and being a woman on the left is a perfectly natural position to hold.

LayOfTheLand

The answer to your question to me:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee