The science of transgender / gender identity

[LayOfTheLand]

I'm feeling a little wary stepping in here, but I wanted to ask a question about transgender and science. I've been following many posts here, and although I don't spend too much of my time thinking about transgender issues, I'm in the camp where I broadly think the world is going a bit mad about transgender. It's not something I can really understand and get my head around, and I'm very opposed to the idea of self-identification. If I'm honest, I struggle with the idea of men who feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, and vice versa, because I broadly see a world where it's fine for a man to have "feminine" traits, and vice versa.

However, in challenging my views, I was looking for some summary of the scientific evidence for gender identity and I came across a few links, and there does seem evidence that there is something genuine for a small proportion of people who have characteristics of "female" brains, and so on.

e.g. sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Has anyone got a good summary of what the scientific evidence is on gender identity, and does it influence your views on the current discussions. Thanks a lot, and please be gentle!

Good question LieoftheLand

I'd like to see a thread for future reference.

Perhaps the science of gender identity needed to be explored by the Parliamentary Committee on GRC. I wonder if they did explore the research?

Brains are plastic. Genitals are not. I dont think anyone here opposes surgery for people with severe dysphoria.

That doesn't change or remove women's place in society, or our need for women only spaces and services.

The first thing I see when I open that link is a banner referring to "Biological Gender". It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in what is to follow.

Further down I see that "Biological Gender" is a spectrum going from Male to Female via Intersex. That's garbage.

What do you mean biological gender making it garbage? At least as I can imagine it, there is something akin to a discrete spectrum, in that s I understand it, intersex is a genuine medical condition.

Sex isn't a spectrum.

Intersex is not a third sex being a mixture of male and female.

What are the characteristics of female brains?

Think it through.

Apply logic.

Noting a weak correlation between some but not all biological females and some other factor doesn't make this factor relevant in determining anything.

Most females are under 5'10''.
This does not mean that men who are also under 5'10'' are female.

Most females have more flexible pelvises than males.
This does not mean that anyone with a flexible pelvis is female.

Most women have smaller brains than men.
This does not mean that a man with a smaller brain is female.

If an attribute exists in both women and men, it isn't a defining characteristic of sex. It may well show a slightly different distribution in men and women. But it isn't a determinant of sex!

We have to stop treating the statistical edges of a normal curve as if they are aberrations.

If your chromosomes, genitals AND gonads are all concordant, there is no ambiguity at all. That is your sex, and EVERY other feature of you is a living breathing example of how YOUR SEX possesses such characteristics. You are just part of the natural variation of your own sex.

My understanding, scientifically, was that it was (that intersex is recognised as a biological sex).

Or rather that intersex is the presence of certain biological markers or characteristics, which is biological rather than social.

How can 'intersex' possibly be a biological sex? Try to use logic to think that through.

What gametes does the imaginary third sex produce, how do they gestate the young?

Intersex is not a sex.

Actually, 'intersex' isn't a thing. It's a misnomer, and its falling out of usage, or it would if certain lobbies would stop co-opting it as a political pawn.
There are various disorders of sex development. They are not 'inter' (between) the sexes.
They are variations of disorders of sex development.

Fr example, girls born with only one X chromosome (Turner's syndrome) are still all female. They aren't a third sex, and they aren't between the two sexes.

To be frank, I'm not a neurobiologist, and that's partly why I'm here and interested. I see the argument that because most women are less than 5 foot 10, just because someone is 6 foot, it doesn't make them a woman. But I don't know enough about what could possibly constitute a "female" brain. But I also have a vague understanding that broadly, scientists agree that there are differences in female and male brains, across a range of characteristics, that allow us to say something about the sex.

also, how many of the prominent trans people we see around have suffered from disorders of sexual development (a.k.a. 'intersex')?

zero

not remotely linked

are you implying that to be trans you need to have suffered from a disorder of sexual development?

not sure why you're lumping them together?

It would be great to have some links there on intersex and if it is falling out of use, and what it means. However, that wasn't really the crux of my original OP.

I'm not linking intersex and transgender together, I didn't bring it up.

I also have a vague understanding that broadly, scientists agree that there are differences in female and male brains

your vague understanding is wrong

Yet on the NHS Choices website under the causes of GD there is some waffle about intersex conditions which kind of lends the whole page with a pseudo-biological flavour:

"What causes gender dysphoria?
Gender development is complex and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity, making the exact cause of gender dysphoria unclear.
Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:
additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication
the foetus’ insensitivity to the hormones, known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – when this happens, gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb
Gender dysphoria may also be the result of other rare conditions, such as:
congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) – where a high level of male hormones are produced in a female foetus. This causes the genitals to become more male in appearance and, in some cases, the baby may be thought to be biologically male when she is born.
intersex conditions – which cause babies to be born with the genitalia of both sexes (or ambiguous genitalia). Parents are recommended to wait until the child can choose their own gender identity before any surgery is carried out."

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Neurologists agree that unless you look at the chromosomal level, you cannot say with 100% certainty if a brain is male or female.

www.quora.com/Would-a-neurosurgeon-be-able-to-tell-the-difference-between-a-male-and-female-brain

LayOfTheLand

I recommend Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender', or the work of neurophysicist Gina Rippon.

There are very, very few sex differences in brains.
Those that are fleetingly observed by some often do not appear in other studies.
The differences that exist are frequently demonstrably the result of socialisation.
Researcher bias and study structure are often laughably poor.
Conclusions are sometimes the opposite of what the results show!

The brain is not an organ of sex.

broadly, scientists agree
Have you evidence for this?
Many of us are scientists, and many of us don't agree that there are clear differences in male and female brains (apart from from the sex chromosomes contained in every cell of those brains of course).

Transgender people disprove the theory of male and female brains.

I'm not linking intersex and transgender together, I didn't bring it up

the link you shared has a lovely rainbow scale showing intersex as the mid point between male and female. which is factually incorrect.

pick your references more carefully

I'm not linking intersex and transgender together, I didn't bring it up.

That's rather disingenuous when that was in a link you posted.

your vague understanding is wrong

Fair enough, it would great to have a scientific link. I was recently thumbing through an old copy of Steven Pinker's the Blank Slate, which is a few years out of date now, who would seem to disagree.

Fine's book has a huge bibliography of all the major studies on sex differences, layoftheland
it would provide you with all the references you seek