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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sexuality

81 replies

iamawoman · 10/08/2018 09:21

Just wondering about peoples perspectives on this
As a heterosexual female, I am not attracted to women (my loss, i know). Therefore I would be very unlikely to be attracted to a feminine appearing transwoman with a femininised body. However equally I wouldn't be attracted to a trans woman with a penis, as sexual attraction is not just about genitals, however they are an essential part of a sexual relationship, so this also rules out attraction to a trans male as they do not have functioning genitalia . I am sure I can't be alone on this and just wondering where this does leave trans people in terms of relationships and defining their sexual preferences. Is this transphobic??

OP posts:
Ooforfoxsakeridesagain · 11/08/2018 07:32

Of course genitals matter. Our reproductive system has been at the root of our oppression for hundreds of years.

Funny how TRAs don’t get this, you know, TWAW and all that.

TerfsUp · 11/08/2018 07:35

No one is a bigot for not fancying anyone outside their sexual orientation.

Well put.

PeakPants · 11/08/2018 08:26

Funny how TRAs don’t get this, you know, TWAW and all that

Yes, I think that the whole 'TW are the most oppressed group' stuff comes from the fact that TW believe that things women suffer as a result of biology, such as sexual harassment, rape, DV, discrimination at work are very trivial. In fact, they sometimes see it as a privilege for someone to discriminate on the basis of sex, because, for them, it reinforces womanhood. So for TW they see biological women as having nothing but cis-privilege whereas they themselves are the victims. In reality though, how can you be oppressed as a result of your biology, but simultaneously have privilege? It's illogical. There is no privilege (in terms of social status) that comes from being a woman. The only difference is that nobody ever questions whether you are in fact female, which is the 'privilege' TW are talking about.

LangCleg · 11/08/2018 09:18

They know sexual orientation is fixed and innate. Otherwise, they wouldn't maintain their own through transition and, in gender ideology speak, go from gay man to straight woman or straight man to lesbian woman. They keep their orientations, so all this guff about everyone else having to change theirs is stuff and nonsense.

Writersblock2 · 11/08/2018 09:20

This is a really interesting thread. I’m bisexual (I’m married to a man and therefore most of this is moot now) and genitals matter to me too. I think that sexual attraction goes a lot deeper than just genitals, and yes, it’s biological. Hormones, pheromones etc all play a part. And I think that’s why I’ve yet to be sexually attracted to someone who is trans; plus no matter what they say, it’s pretty obvious which sex they are (yes, a single photo can hide it, but generally being in the presence of a person it becomes clear).

I’m trying to pinpoint exactly what it is and it is difficult to articulate. For example, my sexual attraction to men is a lot more narrowly defined than my attraction to women - I prefer masculine looking men (physically; their expression can vary - see later in post) but I can be attracted to feminine and masculine looking women (with a more defined lean towards the latter) but I would not be attracted to a transman, particularly one who had surgical changes (and this is also where sex characteristics matter: I’m attracted to women with breasts and vaginas and men with penises, neo “either” doesn’t cut it).

And of course the mind comes into play too because while we do have physical sexual attraction and that is important, that isn’t the only factor we build relationships upon, which I think for me is where it’s more about preference within my sexuality. For example, I would love and be attracted to a woman who had a masectomy for medical reasons despite the secondary sex characteristic I’m attracted to being gone (and that would be a sexual attraction I would miss) - to be crude, she’d still have a vagina; but I’d not be sexually attracted to a transman who felt they weren’t biologically female because the signals MY body would be receiving from them would tell me they are, and those signals matter. In the same way, I find women wearing masculine clothes are often very sexy, and sometimes men with certain feminine ways about them but who are obviously still men (think new romantic types, Marc Bolan etc or even Tim Curry in Rocky Horror) are also sexy. Interestingly, I used to find old school Eddie Izzard attractive, but the more he has tried to emulate femininity the more I went off him (and it was a physical reaction) until it vanished altogether.

Intelligence also features heavily in my sexuality. Many a person has opened their mouth and talked bollocks, and consequently my physical sexual attraction to them vanished in a heartbeat, never to return, while on the flip side, a single characteristic such as a certain voice (hello, Alan Rickman) can send me into orbit and other aspects I might care about suddenly don’t matter.

I would never say I would never be sexually attracted to a certain type of person (e.g trans) but I can say it hasn’t happened yet (frequently, I have the opposite reaction; it reminds me a little bit of an uncanny valley response, for those who know their psychology).

I don’t even know if that makes sense, but that’s how my sexual attraction works.

MyRelationshipIsWeird · 11/08/2018 11:40

That’s interesting Writersblock2, as those saying “sexuality is a spectrum” seem to be implying a sliding scale with attraction to men at one end, women at the other and trans in the middle.

However, your experience as a bisexual person doesn’t seem to back that up. And the uncanny valley theory must be part of it. That unease that things are not as they appear - we are naturally wary of deception.

I also think that I would be unable to form any kind of relationship with someone who spouted the trans mantras (TWAW etc) because I would feel lied to/gaslighted and, as a precious victim of DV, I have my guard up around anyone who tries to hoodwink/intimidate me into mistrusting my own perceptions.

hipsterfun · 11/08/2018 12:22

That unease that things are not as they appear - we are naturally wary of deception.

Tangent, but I accidentally watched a load of contouring/baking videos on YouTube last night (Pinterest has completely misread me) and found the concept and effect extremely unsettling for a raft of reasons that I’m still thinking through.

It’s interesting that this facial trompe l'oeil has taken off at the same time as other suspensions of disbelief are being mandated.

MyRelationshipIsWeird · 11/08/2018 19:40

Yes, it gives the young girls that drag queen pseudo-feminine look too doesn’t it.

2LitreBottle · 11/08/2018 21:48

Well I’ve had my first deletion for not towing the party line. Probably just as well due to my graphic description of why I would only fancy a natal male with all his working anatomy intact.

Suffice to say, biology is not bigotry.

As a straight woman I can choose who I want to have sex with and I don’t have to be inclusive or take it on a case by case basis, any more than a fit 23 year old gay man has to consider my female, 14 stone, 44 year old frame when deciding who he wants to shag. Even if I tell him I identify as a man.

Turph · 11/08/2018 21:59

If a straight male wants to be a woman then they know their pool of potential partners massively decreases. Men are out as they aren't gay, lesbians don't want dick and most hetero women wouldn't be attracted to a male presenting as female.
This should be carved in stone at every gender clinic. If transition is decided to be the way forward for an individual they need to be told they are limiting their dating pool massively. If the dating pool is small (or if they have other sexual issues such as fetishes or an addiction to casual hookups) the chances of meeting someone for a long term relationship are smaller still. Neglecting to tell trans people the truth is not fair.

Vickyyyy · 11/08/2018 22:07

Of course sexuality is not transphobic, no matter how many transactivists scream that everyone should be into cock. The cotton ceiling and such is just fucking vile, and rapey also. I cannot see myself ever being attracted to a transwoman or transman, and I am bisexual so I am told I should be as sex is irrelevant..however I just cannot imagine being into a female that tries to look male, and such. Maybe it would happen, but I can't imagine it, and I don't think this makes me transphobic, though many would disagree and declare me a bigot.

PrincessMargaret · 11/08/2018 22:15

My view you like who you like and you sleep with who you like. As long as no one is pretending to be something they are not and everyone is honest with their expectations there shouldn't be an issue. The trouble arises when people are not honest.

Vickyyyy · 11/08/2018 22:22

I really dont want to offend here but statistically more women are straight and fancy men than lesbians who are attracted to other women so why isn't it the case with transwomen? If TWAW why don't the majority fancy men and a smaller number fancy other women which would reflect the statistics of born women.

Interesting question/observation. Yes, surely if TWAW you would expect sexuality to be around the same? Like, if 10% of women are lesbian (I know its probably less than that), and TWAW then surely it would be around 10% of transwomen who were attracted to female people. Rather than seemingly, most. Something else that I have noticed in this whole thing, is that TWAW and can be lesbians, but male lesbians do not seem to get with other male lesbians, they seem to want female (real) lesbians instead. Why, if there is no dfference and female lesbians are meant to accept male people?

hipsterfun · 11/08/2018 23:20

Well I’ve had my first deletion for not towing the party line. Probably just as well due to my graphic description of why I would only fancy a natal male with all his working anatomy intact.

I wonder who reported it. It wasn’t really pearl clutch-worthy, so maybe a visitor.

ToeToToe · 11/08/2018 23:37

2LitreBottle - yes, it was graphic, but I've read more graphic stuff on here. Can't imagine why it was reported or deleted to be honest.

thebewilderness · 11/08/2018 23:45

There appears to be a group of people who report everything even vaguely plausible for the purpose of creating the illusion that FWR is full of horrible hateful women that the mods delete constantly but never ban.
So say the TRAs and MRAs on twitter.

2LitreBottle · 12/08/2018 00:15

The deletion was due to my mean spiritedness about who might find whom attractive, rather than the gory details of my sex life! Fair enough. First strike. Wrist slapped.

thebewilderness · 12/08/2018 00:22

Oh no, you alluded to the fact that people have sexual orientations that do not include anyone and everyone who wants to fuck them? Dreadful.

NotMeOhNo · 12/08/2018 00:29

Lang makes a very powerful point above. Trans keep their sexual orientation but expect everyone else to change theirs in order to be sexually available to them.
Now that's privilege.

MozzieMagnet · 12/08/2018 05:09

I don't know OP - I guess it leaves a smaller dating pool.
Trans in relationship with other trans
Trans in relationship with pan/omnisexuals
Straight post operative transwomen in relationship with open-minded straight men who can accept a man made inlet
Straight transwomen without bottom surgery in relationship with straight men who are also interested in anal sex
Straight post operative transmen in relationship with open-minded straight women who neither mind scarring nor phalloplasties
Straight transmen without bottom surgery with open-minded straight women who don't need p in v or don't mind a strap on
Lesbian transwomen are going to struggle because pre op their penis is going to be unwanted and post op their tract may look like but not smell or taste like a vagina
Gay transmen are going to struggle because pre op their vagina is going to be unwanted and post op their man made penis will not function like a real one
The other possibilities are gay men in a relationship with transwomen or lesbians in a relationship with a transmen but surely they are not validating the preferred gender identity in that case....

R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 07:53

They know sexual orientation is fixed and innate. Otherwise, they wouldn't maintain their own through transition and, in gender ideology speak, go from gay man to straight woman or straight man to lesbian woman. They keep their orientations

I recommend the opening chapters of the book, "TRANS: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria:A guide for everyone including professionals".

These explanatory chapters are writtern by Dr Az Hakeem a gender specialist. He also edits the book which contains a number of essays from people with a wide range of perspectives and backgrounds.

Some of the chapters can be read open access preview:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Gender-Identity-Dysphoria/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Trans sexuality
Trans sexuality
Trans sexuality
iamawoman · 12/08/2018 09:00

Uncanny valley, Hadnt heard of this before, but now I know what it is there is definitely an element of that would make it difficult to have attraction to trans people
So although the trans person feels they are being their authentic selves, in other people it creates some uneasiness because on the surface you are being presented one thing, but underneath is the opposing biology, chromosomes, pheromones (wonder if these change with HT), prior socialised, lived experience.. i have not yet met a transperson who i haven't known is trans once I have been in conversation with them even if visually they present as the opposite sex very well, there are subtle cues, voice time, movement, eye contact.. that's why i just feel they would all be better served if they direct their activism towards more acceptance of being trans women or men rather than being accepted as authentically the opposite sex

OP posts:
iamawoman · 12/08/2018 09:01

Voice tone not time!

OP posts:
user838383 · 12/08/2018 12:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 12/08/2018 22:32

it reminds me a little bit of an uncanny valley response

That's exactly what it is. And it's why your eye is drawn to a 'trans' person pretty much as soon as they walk into a room.

I had a discussion with some year 5 children recently about AI and how they would feel about an 'intelligent' robot teacher. They started of thinking it would be ok but very quickly said they'd feel "uncomfortable"; "cheated"; "weird"; "wrong"; "tricked"... when I asked them why, they explained that it might look a bit like a person; sound a bit like a person; move a bit like a person and could even be capable of listening to them and advising them and empathising them a bit like a person. But they all said that they would "know deep down it wasn't a person" and that would, essentially, negate all of it.

I think that sums it up really.

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