Misogyny and sexism. How big is the overlap?

[BlazeAway]

I've been asked what the difference is, and I'm struggling to articulate it.

I would say that sexism is based on being lazy with gender stereotypes, (so assuming that a women rather than a man is a secretary), whereas misogyny has an actual hatred/fear/contempt of women behind it (so saying women are only good for being secretaries, or better still being at home with the children), but I don't know whether that's fully it.

I don't know whether I'm making sexism seem too minor in my definition. What would you say?

I'd say that's a pretty good definition Blaze.

I think that's about right. The dictionary definitions make a similar distinction

Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Misogyny - dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Maybe the 'lazy' in what you said is a bit minimising?

Sexism can be against either sex so stereotypes etc. Misogyny is sexism against women with added nasty.

Misogyny covers a spectrum I think, from some 'low level' sexism to active, broiling hatred.

I would say leave out lazy, as misogyny could be equally lazy (or mindless perhaps) in rationale, even if more active in it's application.

Lack of respect and lack of empathy is at the core of many sexist assumptions against women, that isn't always shown in quite the same way in sexism against men, meaning a lot of sexism against women is 'low level' misogyny, so perhaps that is where some of the difficulty lies if you are trying to explain it to a man who doesn't get it becasue their expereince has been different.

We may assume all men like fast cars but we might infer that this means they risk takers or something but it doesn't always have a particular negative connotation for their intelligence or other skills, so is sexist but not misandrist, but your secretary examply goes beyond that into misogyny as it assumes the women is less than a man.

Similarly, assuming all women like to paint their nails is a bit more than a benignly sexist assumption because it stems from a prevailing misogynystic idea that women are all vapid and shallow and should know their feminine place (unless they are working class women, in which case they should be cleaning up and cooking food not wasting their time on nails).

Just my thoughts and not at all concise. Sorry!

Sexism is assumptions based on sex. Misogyny is hatred of women. I think the word is over used at the moment. People use it when they mean sexism against women rather than actual hatred or contempt for women as a group.

Seafret makes a good point that sexism against women usually entails some view that we are less than - so can slide towards misogyny. But there are also other kinds - eg. benevolent sexism where people (men) think of women as needing looking after. And the kind where they think of us as 'other' and mysterious , to be put on a pedestal rather than farty human beings like any other.

I (a woman for what it’s worth) am probably pretty sexist and I’m not a misogynist although for a time in my teens I was (had a bit of a Julius Evola phase...). I used to say God made me a woman to punish my misogyny.

I think sexism can appear to be the lesser of two evils, but when you actually challenge sexism and follow it through with an individual who denies/defends their sexism, you get the realisation there is misogyny underpinning the sexism.

What starts as "women just tend to be better at/prefer/well suited to" starts to unravel and become "women use their looks to do less/enthrall men/keep men as wage slaves".

Or what starts out as "women just have an interest in fashion and appearance men don't have time for" becomes "women who don't remove all their body hair below their eyes are dirty and disgusting".

Etc

I agree with Wheredowe. I’ve yet to meet a sexist comment that wasn’t underpinned by misogyny. Sexism is the belief in harmful, hateful stereotypes about women, which is by definition misogyny. Or to put it another way, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice (sexism isn’t the only outworking of misogyny but it’s one of them).

I don't think they are parallel things. I think it's more like misogyny is the root, partially hidden, so harder to see, and sexism is the fruiting tree growing from the root.

Not everyone who is sexist it misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

Not everyone who is sexist is misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

I am on the fence about this. If someone is sexist in some way, who isn't misogynist, it may be because they don't know things to be different, so they probably wouldn't get defensive when challenged. I am thinking of a conversation with a child where you say "particular colours aren't for boys or girls" and the child will answer "yes that's silly to say they are".

But, but... in most cases, sexism which we are socialised into, occurs at the same time as being socialised into cultural misogyny. .. boys say "Euuuer, yuk! Pink is a girl's colour", so they are developing the belief of female being lesser and disgusting - it's the visceral conditioning to a 'yuk!' response thing that is key here, not the division into 2 different colours.

Possibly - though the child's yuk response is just as likely in the other direction. I've heard plenty of girls say a variation on "Ew, boys!"

But, but... in most cases, sexism which we are socialised into, occurs at the same time as being socialised into cultural misogyny. .. boys say "Euuuer, yuk! Pink is a girl's colour", so they are developing the belief of female being lesser and disgusting - it's the visceral conditioning to a 'yuk!' response thing that is key here, not the division into 2 different colours.

But who'd want to share a colour with a sex that were made out of slugs and snails and poor defenceless puppy-dog's tails??

Thinking further, my dad is of the generation where sexism is pretty ingrained. He still enjoys some pretty ripe jokes and comes out with some eye watering cobblers sometimes.

But he is excessively proud of his daughters - my sister is in the police and he will tell everyone he meets what a fabulous person she is and how she doesn't take any shit. He is extremely vocal about me actually getting a career after all those years as Mrs super housewife, and told me he thought all that 'Womans place is in the home' stuff was bollocks and he's so glad to see me doing well in a job, earning my own money and being a great example to my girls. He tells all my kids equally that they can do whatever they want to do, and was encouraging one of my daughters towards engineering.

So I genuinely don't think he's a misogynist. Or if he is, he's pretty conflicted.

I've heard plenty of girls say a variation on "Ew, boys!"

But the childlike 'tribes' of boys and girls get gradually culturally conditioned into a hierarchy by repetition and the 'yuk! about males is socialised out of girls (even though a lot of men are stomach-churningly revolting in their sexual disfunction and behaviour, so that disgust would serve them well to keep).

I'm thinking of stories like The Frog Prince and Beauty and the Beast where girls are taught to suppress their disgust of (repulsive) males to be 'better', less superficial people.

Part of misogyny is cultural conditioning that women and girls should be held to high (impossible?) behavioural standards and judged harshly. It manifests as genuine visceral feelings of disgust and hatred when women fail or don't comply. Males are more accepted - as rugged, flawed and forgivable whatever their behaviour - almost no matter how disgusting they are, it can be excused.

Sorry. Was interrupted mid post. Will just read the above now.

who'd want to share a colour with a sex that were made out of slugs and snails and poor defenceless puppy-dog's tails??

I always thought that sounded like adventure and exploration. Being compared to cake ingredients seems somewhat static, boring and waiting to be consumed by someone else.

I genuinely don't think he's a misogynist. Or if he is, he's pretty conflicted.

My dad was theoretically against sexism, thought his own dad was a prick, loved his mum, encourage his daughters, etc. But he had really unrealistic expectations of women as a spouse and the misogyny would slip out there.

I don't find slugs and snails particularly adventuresome but I grew up in west wales where you can't take 2 steps without crushing a snail.

Ha ha. I used to play with snails.

Wheredowebegin-your posts are spot on. The conditioning of girls to accept and condone crap behaviour from boys starts so early, and is a theme in many adult woman's lives.

I don't think they are parallel things. I think it's more like misogyny is the root, partially hidden, so harder to see, and sexism is the fruiting tree growing from the root.

Not everyone who is sexist it misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

This is how I see it.

YY to girls being socialized to overlook the disgusting, or to attempt to 'civilize' it. And also boys being indulged in their rough edges.

But I'm still not seeing how that negates misogyny as a root that forms the basis for an idea which will falter if the root dies.

These are pretty deeply woven cultural ideas, yes. And they wouldn't have grown up without a strongly misogynistic grounding. Cutting down the branches of sexism is a good thing, but it's the root of misogyny which causes all sorts of other nonsense to spring up, even as some things are cut right back.

I don't think sexism and misoginy are always a pair. We treat women differently from men in many ways, sometimes with good intention, sometimes out of tradition, sometimes for deliberately oppressive purposes. Good intentions don't always work out, sometimes traditions are steeped in dubious histories, but it doesn't make sexism inherently misogynist.

I think you can find sexism without misoginy, but not vice versa.

We even have laws that are sexist, in as much as they differentiate between men and women. The rights and wrongs of that are another debate, but sexism can be used in the same manner as positive discrimination, to try and redress the balance of favour.

As for the conditioning of our children, I think this is the number one factor for most of our troubles between the sexes, and we adults as a whole continue to (largely) perpetuate the problems. For every seeming step forward in each generation, we also seem to have a step backwards with ever more violent acts and abuse particularly from males towards females. Whatever adult men and women are doing as a society, progress is excruciatingly slow.

But I'm still not seeing how that negates misogyny as a root that forms the basis for an idea which will falter if the root dies.

Oh no. I definitely agree that misogyny is the root of sexism and that sexism would die without misogyny - I am arguing against the inference that could be drawn from the analogy - that you can be sexist (inherit sexism), without experiencing misogyny (inheriting the misogyny with it).

Sexism, whether lazy, thoughtless, unintended, whatever - can not itself be plucked from 'the tree' of misogyny. Misogyny is always there in the sexism, but it may be unconscious or latent like unconscious racism. A sexist person is also a misogynist under closer examination.