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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Misogyny and sexism. How big is the overlap?

54 replies

BlazeAway · 07/08/2018 21:18

I've been asked what the difference is, and I'm struggling to articulate it.

I would say that sexism is based on being lazy with gender stereotypes, (so assuming that a women rather than a man is a secretary), whereas misogyny has an actual hatred/fear/contempt of women behind it (so saying women are only good for being secretaries, or better still being at home with the children), but I don't know whether that's fully it.

I don't know whether I'm making sexism seem too minor in my definition. What would you say?

OP posts:
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 10:04

Thinking about it - everyone is a misogynist though - it would be pretty hard to not be affected by conditioning. That's why it is important to examine our own feelings and assumptions.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 10:17

Oh, I get you now. I think there is probably a difference between a 'sexist' and someone who is affected by cultural sexist attitudes. Though I appreciate that's probably a very nuanced distinction.

To 'be' a sexist rather implies an active choice to embrace those attitudes, which certainly does indicate misogyny, whereas to have some sexist attitudes due to cultural conditioning that can be unlearned rather than an ontological condition is something different.
Though obviously everything is learned behaviour, of course. But an active choice is very different to an unconscious one.

I'm aware that this is all a bit rareified, but, to continue the example of my dad - his father was an appalling misogynist. He kept my grandmother in a cupboard when he felt she stepped out of line. My dad learned a lot of cultural behaviour and attitude from my grandad, and has certainly behaved in bad ways in his life. But, certainly since our reconciliation, he has displayed a real willingness to admit he was very wrong about things - when I was a child and wanted to be a mechanic, I was flat out told no, because I was female. He wouldn't even think that now about my daughters. He still has much to learn, but he doesn't embrace the misogyny his father did.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 10:28

Yes. It would be harsh to label someone as either 'a sexist' or 'a misogynist' if they are undergoing a process of self-examination around it and are ready to be corrected.

But people can resent the process - it is exhausting and demoralising to constantly second-guess your instincts and assumptions- so they stop at some point (then maybe start again later) or alternatively people really easily revert to sexism and misogyny in times of stress.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 10:39

That's very true. From my own experience of moving from internalised misogyny to a hopefully ever-evolving enlightened understanding, it is a real slog at times to not give in. There is quite a bit of two steps forward, three steps back.

It's one of the reasons I really appreciate Datun's posts on here, because she really shows calm patience which is so helpful in reaching people who are on a journey. But obviously, everyone is human and growth can be frustrating.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 10:41

Yes.

By the way I just wanted to express Shock SadAngry at He kept my grandmother in a cupboard when he felt she stepped out of line.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 10:51

Thinking about it though - I wouldn't put that past my grandfather. My dad didn't detail why he thought he was such a prick.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 10:53

Yeah. Grandpa was a real peach. I was the only person at his funeral, and I only went because I'm a daft sod who felt a sense of duty.

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2018 10:56

An actual cupboard? Angry

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2018 11:01

The thing I struggle with most, I think, is how angry other women get when anyone suggests that their behaviour is in any way misogynist or supporting patriarchal norms. You see it all the time on here- the enabling and excusing of sexist and misogynist behaviour and a real "shoot the messenger" narrative. I think a lot of "and that's why I would never call myself a feminist" posts are rooted in this.

quencher · 08/08/2018 11:01

I would put as misogyny being a type of sexism. Sexism describes the actions of patriarchy while misogyny is one of those actions under sexism. Sexism being a general term why misogyny is more specific and in relation to character.

seafret · 08/08/2018 11:08

I don't think they are parallel things. I think it's more like misogyny is the root, partially hidden, so harder to see, and sexism is the fruiting tree growing from the root.

Not everyone who is sexist it misogynist. Sometimes they are just picking the fruit of the tree. But without the root, the tree would wither away.

Yes this is what I would have loved to have written floral!!! Ditto what you all say about the nuance and unconscious bias/ sexism :)

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 11:11

how angry other women get when anyone suggests that their behaviour is in any way misogynist or supporting patriarchal norms.

Yes. Though it is their sense of order and security being challenged - I see it as. One admission could make the whole thing unravel. They cling to what is safe and familiar.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 11:22

Bertrand, yes. Cupboard under the stairs, I think. Dad still tears up when it's (rarely) mentioned. The man was a complete bastard and I am extremely relieved that I don't share his DNA, as he's not a blood relative.

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2018 11:23

"One admission could make the whole thing unravel"
This is fantastically described in The Women's Room. I love that book.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 11:33

Floral Your poor dad and granny. How horrible to witness his mum being abused like that - how terrifying and heartbreaking.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 08/08/2018 11:34

I haven't read The Women's Room bertrand. I really must sit down and read an actual book soon.

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2018 11:40

It's very dated now- but it was such a revelatory book for many women of my generation and older. Certainly in my top 3 feminist "origins" texts!

TornFromTheInside · 08/08/2018 15:57

I struggle with misogyny as a hatred of women, because I think that's one of the most immediate assumptions, when in my opinion, it's not contempt or hatred behind it.
For some men, I absolutely do believe it is, but not for the majority (imo).

I think it's a far more complex motivation for most men. Intimidation, fear, nerves, attraction, confusion all play a part too. I think the same motivation we see in the 8 year old boy when interacting with girls still exists in adult males, and the chosen 'solution' is a form of bullying / control to hide our own insecurities. I really do think most men do like women, but a disturbing percentage of them just can't deal with the relationship. When men can't cope, they frequently become irrational and aggressive - physically and/or emotionally.

The disdain for women (I feel) is often hiding insecurities.

DieAntword · 08/08/2018 16:06

The disdain for women (I feel) is often hiding insecurities.

I definitely agree with that. Going back to Evola - he openly explained his disdain for women as the fear of being absorbed back into the womb (as a representation of the earth), of having his individuality annihilated in another, although he put more of a gloss on it and managed to make that once basic idea into like 4 books.

seafret · 09/08/2018 11:00

I struggle with misogyny as a hatred of women, because I think that's one of the most immediate assumptions, when in my opinion, it's not contempt or hatred behind it.
For some men, I absolutely do believe it is, but not for the majority (imo).

I think it's a far more complex motivation for most men. Intimidation, fear, nerves, attraction, confusion all play a part too. I think the same motivation we see in the 8 year old boy when interacting with girls still exists in adult males, and the chosen 'solution' is a form of bullying / control to hide our own insecurities. I really do think most men do like women, but a disturbing percentage of them just can't deal with the relationship. When men can't cope, they frequently become irrational and aggressive - physically and/or emotionally.

The disdain for women (I feel) is often hiding insecurities.

I agree that the psychology behind it is not as simple as the word "hatred" might sometimes be thought of in everyday speech, but what is hatred?

The dictionaries say an extremely strong feeling of dislike, anger, disgust, animosity, a "disposition toward hostiltiy" resentment, anger, contempt, disdain, toward a siutuation, group or person. Blame (as distinct from measured understanding of cause and effect) I would say enters into creating that state of feeling.

As you say, all too often the complex feelings that you state eg "Intimidation, fear, nerves, attraction, confusion", "disdain" do result in the "irrational and aggressive" bullying behaviour you describe etc. But is that not hateful? Disdain is very much bordering on disgust.

Hate in its intensity gives strong motivation to remove the source of the problem, to control it or destroy it.

Does behaviour have to be 10/10 in severity before it is called hateful or hatred? Or does it start much lower down the spectrum? Because a behaviour could have been more hateful, does this mean it was not hate fuelled at all?

Feeling of lesser intensity and 'lesser' behaviours along this scale can be said to be manifestations of 'lesser' hatred and anger, so I imagine (not being a feminist scholar myself) that this is how the word is used and meant when you cut to the chase.

Many deeply racist people also have those complex angry irrational fearful feelings you describe, and the misplaced/msdirected anger, and at its worst this can lead to hateful speech and actions = hatred.

But those complex feelings are also not at all far from (or are the same as depending on your view) what underpins narcisstic behaviour and feeling of being narcissitically wounded etc, hence the link with male abusers and narcissim, controlling behaviour, anger and rage etc.

So why do those feelings and perhaps more to the point behaviours develop (or are sustained) in men, as you say with the 8 year old boy bully growing up into a dysfunctional and angry 'women averse' man.

I think perhaps it does stem from the stage when children are naturally narcisstic (around 3 years old and also a crucial time of identity formation) from a self preservationary point of view (demanding continued nurture and attention and food etc to maximise their own growth and survival perhaps from some sense of 'threat' from a new sibling or when they begin to percieve that other people are important and that they are not actually the centre of the universe) but that social conditioning trains girls to understand and manage their emotions better, to be kinder and more empathetic, to share (and this has evolutionary advantages to women and children.. and men of course), and to not assume control (even if they start out bossy this is limited to bossiness in the domestic zone). Perhaps testoerone is an additional chalenge for young boys that fails to successfully addressed too often or is chanelled into 'acceptable aggression'.

The prevailing misogyny then often fails to instill these soft and kind qualities in all boys and fails to explain the world and women accurately to them to alleviate their confusion (as is inevitable if women are constantly misdescribed, misunderstood, dismissed, devalued etc, many explanantions are going to be wrong or outright lies), and this simply reinforces the confusion (as it clearly is at odds with a boy's view of his loving and clever mother for example). But as you say to deal with this often boys are allowed to become bulllies and lash out at each other and at women for the feelings and thoughts that they cannot understand.

But to allow feelings of revenge and control and anger and entitlement to crowd out empathy and kindness. Is this not hateful behaviour? Isn't this the general theme in Star Wars - not letting certain emotions overwhelm you and turn you to the Dark Side?

And of course when any bad behaviour is seen in women then it 'justifies' all this rage and confusion that simmers underneath. So narcisstic. And cruel to men and especially women and children. And so unnecessary except to serve narcisstic sociopathic goals.

Having empathetic, peaceful men is not much use if you want to raise an army and go marauding to expand your domain - much better to have men that feel angry, aggressive, dominant and entitled.

I also think that many men do not recognise that what they feel in everyday reaction is an anger that is too far along the spectrum to be 'normal', that it is often misplaced and misdirected toward women, and the relationship to control and hatred, and do not see it and its risks in the same way that women do - because we feel the brunt of it more often and in more complex ways.

So this thread discusses that sexism can have less of the severe hating, overtly vengeful mentality that people associate with misogyny, but that for many misogynistic men, there absolutely is a simmering of hateful, fearful anger of themselves, the confusion they feel, the world, other men, (for whatever reason) but waht counts most for women is that it is all balled up into an expression of hateful behaviour aimed at women.

So yes, to cut to the chase, hatred of women seems OK to me.

TornFromTheInside · 09/08/2018 15:23

I also think that many men do not recognise that what they feel in everyday reaction is an anger that is too far along the spectrum to be 'normal', that it is often misplaced and misdirected toward women, and the relationship to control and hatred, and do not see it and its risks in the same way that women do - because we feel the brunt of it more often and in more complex ways.

Very much agree with this.
I do however, still draw a distinction between hating women, and hating situations between men and women, and I think a lot of men fall into the latter. I think most men like women, they are attracted to them, and want to be attractive to them. The problem often starts when things don't go according to plan (their plan!). That not every woman is going to like them, not every woman will find them attractive and not every woman is going to agree with their points of view / behaviours etc, or fall into line with the man's expectation of the woman's behaviour.

I truly think this is the crux of many male issues - a lack of ability to see anything but their own world view, and to deal with conflict - emotional or otherwise.
Now I'm not about to blame women for that - but I would say that both mothers and fathers will have helped to shape a boy into a man. For every father telling a son to 'man up' there's a mother saying 'big boys don't cry' etc.
The conditioning of children is so ingrained in society, it will take generations after generations to change. But change it must.

seafret · 09/08/2018 17:02

torn well, I don't disagree with some of what you say eg about entitlement, but in many men, that 'wanting and entitlement' turns to hate when it cannot get what it wants.

Hate being an active/reactive state I think, not a passive or stable one, it is not a constant level but one that builds and subsides.

When 'provoked' the narcissistic wound, or rejection/resentment wound is stirred and the hate is activated and uses the narrative about women that is already there to guide it's path and so the hateful behaviour is shown.

Narcisstists and sociopaths and deep racists are not constantly brimming over with hate and rage, it ebbs and flows and they appear fairly normal in some contexts. Until something happens, then the hatefulness just flows out. And to a lesser extent in many men.

I think you have said you are a man torn? It is very likely then that you haven't seen these hates exposed in the same way women have.

If there is no hate, then the man is 'just' sexist, picking from the tree as Floral said. Or he is a (potentially lovely) non-sexist man.

TornFromTheInside · 09/08/2018 17:23

I've seen some hate, I've seen some violence, and I've seen some frustration that results in emotional abuse. But there is too wide a range for most people (men and women) to have witnessed it all. Some will have witnessed more than others of course - especially in certain professions (but that too can skew perception).

I think we're all sexist, but in varying degrees and with a broad spectrum of motivations. There was a thread topic of chivalry recently which (generally speaking) is on the 'well natured but probably misguided' end of sexism. As is the expectation of men to pay for meals etc. The motivations behind them are generally polite / romantic but it's sexism all the same.

Then we have the more sinister aspects, where men and women hold beliefs about each other or make assumptions, despite liking one another - men should be strong, women should be gentle, women make good nurses, men make good engineers etc. Those sexist views (for many) aren't born of hatred, they are just conditioned into us and seemingly supported by what we see around us (but it's self-fulfilling in as much as if we believe women make good nurses, we end up steering them into nursing).

And then there is the rather ugly sexism. The genuine belief that man is superior, and the role of a woman is to fulfil man's desire. Any departure from that narrative is a failure of the woman, and any reluctance to accept that belief is the 'stupidity' of women. I know this exists, I've heard it. I think most of us have. It comes in many guises, most not quite as blatant, but it's there. This for me is where misogyny thrives.
It is incredibly frustrating too - because when other men speak out and try to educate, it's like speaking to a different species of man. They really just look at you blankly and just cannot grasp what's being said.
Heartbreaking really for all concerned, because I personally (perhaps foolishly) believe that we probably all started out with a blank slate - and didn't see colour or sex or race as children... but within a few short years, that blank slate was written all over.

SarahCarer · 09/08/2018 22:31

I think homophobia is mysogyny and that transphobia in men is actually a better description than homophobia. This is just from personal experience but I have noticed that men can be absolutely fine with a man they know full well is gay, as long as he is not effeminate. But their lip curls in disgust at an effeminate man. And deep down I think it's because this threatens their power which is maintained by distinctive sex based roles.

seafret · 10/08/2018 04:36

Torn Again I agree with some of your points and being born a blank slate and how we may are shaped by societal norms and/or by abuse etc, but when you say things like

And then there is the rather ugly sexism. The genuine belief that man is superior, and the role of a woman is to fulfil man's desire. Any departure from that narrative is a failure of the woman, and any reluctance to accept that belief is the 'stupidity' of women. I know this exists, I've heard it. I think most of us have. It comes in many guises, most not quite as blatant, but it's there. This for me is where misogyny thrives.

And you still want to say that misogyny is not hatred of women, I really wonder where you are coming from and whether it is worth engaging with you. "failure of a woman to conform", "stupidity" of women. This is not 'love' speech or 'like' speech is it.

It is the language of disrespect and revenge and anger and control and of tantrum. Hate and hateful behaviour is developed out of feeling these things and shaped by hte hate and blame that has gone before it. But I think you know this and yet still don't want to say it is what it is, but rather minimse the language and frame it as men being confused and emotionally immature.

And yes, that may absolutely be the case, but failure to condemn the behaviour in strong enough terms is part of what allows it to continue.

The answer is still "No this is wrong, now fucking stop it." Just like with a child bully.

Cause and effect is one thing and that can be important in itself and there can be compassion and therapy for that where needed, but once the behaviour has been recognised, then it must simply stop, as one would expect a child bully to stop. There is no justification for it to continue or for its description to be minimised. It is hateful and wrong, the end. The perpetrator needs to find a path to remorse and rehabilitation and healing of whatever pain they may have and no longer inflict it on others.

And you say "but there is too wide a range for most people (men and women) to have witnessed it all." Actually, there really isn't a wide range at all, it really does fall into the cliches as many women will tell you, and are telling you.

It is not mysterious and complicated at all. And women have thousands of years of experience to draw on.

But you see as a man, you won't have tried to buy tyres or a car, or a computer or DIY stuff as a woman; or deal with tradesmen, see male doctors, or be in bars or clubs, or offices, or have dates, or have normal conversations, or you know just everyday interactions with everyday men and then those particular sorts of men on top of that just for some added misogynistic sprinkles.

And just when you aren't expecting it, you have quiet 'jokes' made out of other people's earshot by an older man that you don't really even know, about how he likes to see his wife down on her knees, and although you feel shocked because you had thought this man was OK and you hate to be cynical about all men, and NAMALT, he actually isn't a nice man and you realise that this is sadly just part of a normal day.

Fuck this.

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