I can't tell if the Labour leadership is anti-Semitic but their treatment of women has me finding it not hard to believe

[Movablefeast]

I have been living outside the UK for many years, my parents were Labour voters and my dad was very active in local Labour politics. I can't say I have been following British politics closely except to be completely confused. It feels like the working class have actually been demonized even more since I left the country and I am not sure what or who Labour represents anymore.

No one seems to be representing the population that voted to stay in the EU, no one represents ordinary women for example and I would have no idea who to vote for in the next election. There was always a strong contingent of the working class who voted Tory, in my own family my aunt was always very strongly blue. The Tories seem to have built an image as being more for "working people" than Labour. I could never see myself voting for the Tories but I have found a number of family and friends drifting rightward mostly because of the apparent snobbery of the Labour leadership. I know this is ridiculously subjective. But I was very surprised to find that when I called home after the referendum my brother and two best female friends had all voted for Brexit.

I don't know exactly what I am asking in this thread, I guess just that it is depressing to feel unrepresented and to wonder if I am totally out of touch with my country of birth. I am confused, who does Labour represent and why is their message so confused?

but if you crash around displacing people

Um. I think we had more than a bit of a hand in that. Glass houses n' all...

gendercritter

You appear to have taken issue with the definitions, but by virtue of your own post you have just said you accept the right to self-determination and that you wouldn't make the Nazi comparison, so I personally don't think you've done anything that would cross those lines.

These are not my own definitions of antisemitism, but ones that have been carefully thought out by the IHRA.

I have absolutely NO interest in arguing the Middle-East conflict, and I don't think it is relevant here. I merely brought up the definition in light of the anti-Zionism comment. My own experiences of hearing the debate around that particular subject says that there exists a double-standard by which Israel is judged (in my opinion), and that antisemitic tropes can bleed in to the argument.

I do not think Israel is above reproach, or shouldn't be criticized. Far from it.

However, when you start equating all Israelis with their government (or worse comparisons), or accusing the very existence of the state to be racist, then you've overstepped the mark. It is this kind of language that often gets hidden by the phrase "anti-Zionism," in my view.

To illustrate:
Saudi Arabia has a poor record on women's rights, and the rights of homosexuals. I think that is okay to state that fact and to criticize such policies. This absolutely does not mean that we can ever say that all Saudi Arabians are sexist homophobes, because that would be a gross generalization and racist. It would be even worse to say that just because Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, this somehow means we should judge all Muslims by the practices of Saudi Arabia - such statements would be clear anti-Muslim bigotry/Islamophobia.

That's a really helpful comparison/ explanation heresy thanks. I don't know enough about it really but that has helped me.

I've had a good read of those and Googled around it a bit. There do seem to be quite a few objections around about the full definition. It gives me an understanding of the sorts of things Jews are unfairly accused of, how they continue to experience persecution in a democratic and developed country and also how someone could be unfairly accused of being anti-Semitic by these definitions. I can think of two or three possible examples. I can see why someone would object but I also note they the definition has been very carefully put together by a good number of likely impartial people.

For the opposition party in the British democracy to think that it is acceptable to accuse British citizens of disloyalty purely because of their religion is disgusting.

It's utterly unacceptable when people accuse British Muslims of disloyalty to their country, purely because they are Muslim.

Why should it be any different for British Jews?

With a very heavy heart I'll probably be voting Conservative.

LibDems LGBT twitter acc is enough not to vote for them, many of their senior figures are quite nasty to and about women

Labour, I actually voted labour last election, Corbin worried me but I thought more Tory government would be worse. The anti semitism is a major factor, I was unaware there was a problem at las times election as I was more concerned with getting Tories out, on closer look I'm disgusted by Labour. Their attitude to women just finishes me, if they get their way on eroding women's rights well all be in a worse position than under Tory women hating islamaphobia

What a set of shitty options

Thank you heresy. I see what you're saying

@gendercritter

"Doesn't mean Jews deserve to be treated badly but equally the Israeli government shouldn't be above criticism."

Actually the "but" makes this statement completely anti-semitic. Why are you equating Jewish people - who lives across the world in many different countries - to the Israeli government?

Here are some different versions of your statement - let me know how you feel about them:

"Doesn't mean Muslims deserve to be treated badly but equally the Iranian government shouldn't be above criticism."

"Doesn't mean black people deserve to be treated badly but equally the Nigerian government shouldn't be above criticism."

Does that help?