I can't tell if the Labour leadership is anti-Semitic but their treatment of women has me finding it not hard to believe

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I have been living outside the UK for many years, my parents were Labour voters and my dad was very active in local Labour politics. I can't say I have been following British politics closely except to be completely confused. It feels like the working class have actually been demonized even more since I left the country and I am not sure what or who Labour represents anymore.

No one seems to be representing the population that voted to stay in the EU, no one represents ordinary women for example and I would have no idea who to vote for in the next election. There was always a strong contingent of the working class who voted Tory, in my own family my aunt was always very strongly blue. The Tories seem to have built an image as being more for "working people" than Labour. I could never see myself voting for the Tories but I have found a number of family and friends drifting rightward mostly because of the apparent snobbery of the Labour leadership. I know this is ridiculously subjective. But I was very surprised to find that when I called home after the referendum my brother and two best female friends had all voted for Brexit.

I don't know exactly what I am asking in this thread, I guess just that it is depressing to feel unrepresented and to wonder if I am totally out of touch with my country of birth. I am confused, who does Labour represent and why is their message so confused?

GorgonLondon I'm listening and concerned by what you say. If you have any more info to send me I will read it. The press are so anti Corbyn I must admit I have assumed that if there was any more mud to find they would have found it. If it's true that Tory MPs are meeting with America's alt right as well heaven help us.

I will have to spoil my ballot paper.
It such a shame, I would love to vote Labour, but they are so fucked up and represent anything for me at the moment. They are the worst 'opposition' in my adult lifetime I have ever know.
Fuck Nick Clegg and what he has done to the Liberals party support.

OP - I hear ya. It's very depressing, isn't it?

When Corbyn first started to be talked of a future LP leader I posted on MN about my concerns about his far-left politics (Hamas / Sinn Fein / Hezbollah- these are not the "friends"* that I want my prime minister to have). I was told I was fear-mongering; I was naive to believe everything I read in the press; I was too right wing to support real left wing politics; I was only interested in Blair-ite left politics....

But I stand by it: JC is not a nice person.

He is a terrible leader. If he isn't himself directly anti-semitic, he has been utterly ineffectual in stamping it out within the Labour Party, which is almost as bad TBH.

• actual quote from JC regarding Hamas and Hezbollah; his links with Sinn Fein go back to well before the time when there was a viable peace process

Labour is only geared towards students/self righteous unemployed. Tories most benefit retirees and lower middle class/affluent working class. Everyone else is ignored.

@Olennas is right. Jeremy Corbyn is a horrible person. He is of the righteous revolution branch of the extreme left, death is a necessary part of cultural revolution and all that shit. He hasn't left his late teens mentally.

I was once fooled by Corbyn, I see his ugly inner soul now, he is also quite basic intelligence wise.

HmmWell: Please could you help me stage an intervention for my old mum?😉😥

I know a number of my local labour councillors are anti self ID - you won’t find that written anywhere, but I know that they will be doing the right thing behind the scenes.

Really? They're politicians. Very few will sacrifice their career for genuine commitment.

I’m sure there are Green and LibDem councillors who are the same

But not Conservatives?

Oh such rose-tinted blinkers.

@heresyandwitchcraft Thank you. I know that Corbyn and his followers don't represent most people in the UK.

@BettyduMonde That's appalling. I wonder though, how much longer can decent people such as you and your friend carry on representing a party that's become the home for the kind of horrific racism you describe? Can you really knock on doors and defend them to Jewish people? It sounds as if you completely understand and recognise the reality for Jewish people in Labour today.

@SarahCarer I will take your comment at face value (although I've encountered a lot of Corbyn supporters who continue to express amazement and bafflement at the idea that anyone has found evidence of antisemitism in Labour) and point you in the direction of two leading lights in the fight against antisemitism in Labour, one of whom has reported over 1200 individual Labour members already and has a backlog of another 1000. There are very, very, very many examples on their Twitter feeds if you would like to read them:
twitter.com/LabourAgainstAS
twitter.com/gnasherjew

Olennas I agree with you. Until fairly recently I might also have thought Corbyn was 'only' ineffectual at tackling antisemitism, but recent weeks and months have made it clear that he is himself absolutely an antisemite. Articles saying this have been published by labour MPs and ex-ministers in the mainstream press.

I am heartened that so many people are seeing through it now, but very frightened and sickened that it has reached this point. Twitter is an absolute cesspool, Jewish people are being told to 'take a shower' and worse.

I couldn't vote Tory, ever. But I don't like JC. He is such an old fuddy duddy. He was invited to Glastonbury before the Brexit vote but couldn't be arsed and the way the female contenders were treated in the leader election that he won was misogynistic. Can you really be defined as left wing if you are a misogynist? I mean: I consider that to be left wing is to believe in equal rights for all. Not just rights for white christian males with a certain amount of education.

Gorgon, when I read about the anti-semitism issue within Labour, it made me think of the principle behind of the 10th Rule of Misogyny: the worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Some Labour members seem to think that the absolute worst thing about anti-semitism is that it makes Jeremy Corbyn look bad.

And that tells its own tale.

If an election was called for tomorrow I'd be voting UKIP on principle as they're the only ones not sucking up to the trans cult.

JellySlice see the Ann Sinnott thread.

Re: Tories - don’t know any - my dad was one, he bought into Thatcher’s lie that success would come if you just worked hard enough, but these days, nope.

I suspect there are Tories that are anti Self ID, but I wouldn't say I was sure of it.

Gorgon my friend is wrestling with whether he is willing to stand again, I’m still on the ‘changes to parties happen from within’ team, but I am probably more optimistic than most!

This is completely unacceptable to the Jewish community of the UK and makes me feel sick to my stomach... Gorgon may I ask how we can help?

On a separate note (and I don't want to derail this thread), I was wondering if anyone has come across any academic analyses of potential similarities between misogyny and antisemitism? They strike me as very different, yet share some characteristics. Notably they are both part of the "oldest hatreds," seem to be ever-present throughout time and place, and tend to mutate. Antisemitism is unique, of course, but I find it interesting that accusations of antisemitism and misogyny seem to be dismissed like this by those on the "left," when I feel like they might take other accusations of discrimination more seriously. Is there a reason these two, in particular, are blind spots?

Ann Sinnott is a rarity, one of the "very few".

There was a really good article about Labour's problem with anti-semitism in the Guardian about a week ago. By Jonathan Freedland. What he said could have been well-applied to the issue of misogyny in the party.

In addition, I think I've just become aware of a lack of intellectual rigour and moral fibre in all parties around the issue

The moment I became very very uneasy about JC was the moment people were singing that godawful song of his name at Glastonbury

I will never vote Conservative though. Their record on the NHS and Education policy is woeful

Here just to confirm everything @GorgonLondon has been saying.

And for those who think it's to do with "Israel" - it's really not.

JC is an anti-Semite because he thinks Jews are all rich bankers (we're really, really not) upholding capitalism.

I was asking the question in good faith and I have had a look at those twitter feeds but I can only see anti zionism unless I've missed something? Who are the holocaust deniers they are harbouring? I wouldn't call myself a Corbyn supporter either.

Hang on I think I clicked on the same link twice. The other one has clearer accusations. I will read up further on all this.

Sarah
I will let others speak more clearly on this issue, but it's worth remembering that anti-Zionism is a really loaded term which actually could be a form of antisemitism. It's one thing to criticize the Israeli government, and say that you are anti-Netanyahu and his policies. It's another thing entirely to deny the Jewish people (and Jewish people alone) the right to self-determination including self-governance and nationhood. Many people use the Israel/Palestine dispute to express genuinely antisemitic views. I have seen it personally - it's frightening how much some people start to froth at the mouth as soon as you say "Israel."

If you haven't read it, I would recommend looking at the working definition of antisemitism developed by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. Some important notes when it comes to Israel are these:

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism?usergroup=7

The Corbynites I know ( including my secular Jewish DH, despite his DM telling him that what Labour have said is anti semetic and she will never vote for them again) answer all the anti semitism questions with what aboutery, saying that the Tories are also anti semetic, that the right wing press have it in for him etc etc. They are not admitting there is a problem with anti semitism or misogyny in the LP. They would rather intimidate dissenters than actually address the issues. I won't vote at all probably in the next election. My Labour vote never counted anyway as I live in a safe Tory seat, but I want Corbyn to go. I don't want my vote used to prove how popular JC is, it's just the system that's against him. The 'system' that has apparently meant they haven't won an election since 1979 because the only successful Labour government was Tory in disguise. It's not up to the Tories to make an opposition party electable, it's up to them to do it, and they haven't in that case. The print press is dying on its arse. What excuse will they come up with when they can't blame the right wing press? Corbyn would shit himself if he was elected because he would have to actually follow through on the crap he spouts.

Gorgon, Confessions. I hear so many Jewish people saying they are genuinely scared of what will happen to them if Corbyn gets into power, and I've seen with my own eyes some of the tweets and comments which are allegedly merely (yeah, right) anti-Zionist, but in fact look like they're straight out of the "protocols of the elders of Zion".

Being critical of IsrRli policy on the west bank (as indeed one of my Israeli friends is) is a completely different thing from the rampant and virulent anti-Semitism I see coming from some members of the Labour party.

I stuck it out for a long time in the hope that my vote could count for something at constituency level, but I realised about six months ago that the misogyny and anti-Semitism was so entrenched that I had to leave. I'm now politically homeless like so many others.

I take issue with these two Heresy

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

I'd genuinely like to think I'm not anti-Semitic. I studied Jewish history at school and empathise enormously for the suffering Jewish people have experienced. I have only ever felt that anti-Semitism needs stamping out very assertively. But Israel is a complex issue.

Should every people have a right to self-determination? Of course. The Kurdish people are another group who don't have their own state and I think everyone should - it's a basic to have a home. But the foundation of Israel was enormously complicated and from my limited knowledge of it seems to have been handled very badly. Palestine has a right to self-determination too and to have a nation state which is a safe home. I don't believe this is an issue of racism, but if you crash around displacing people, saying 'this land is holy to us' when it's holy also to the people you're shoving out - there needs to be more thought. That's an issue involving the Israeli government, not a religion.

Do I think the way Israel has handled Palestinian people is ok? No. I wouldn't compare them to the Nazi's but I do think their treatment has been a disgrace on many levels. It isn't a simple issue. Doesn't mean Jews deserve to be treated badly but equally the Israeli government shouldn't be above criticism.

If arguing those things makes one an anti-Semite, that's very concerning.

That's exactly what it doesn't do.

gendercritter I don't think that what you have said goes against either of the points you highlighted.