Michigan court concludes that trans women are NOT women

[Seeingadistance]

thinkprogress.org/michigan-court-anti-transgender-planet-fitness-ruling-11d48ac24db8/

Well done to Yvette Cormier for continuing to fight against Planet Fitness's decision to penalise her for pointing out that there was a man in the women's changing room.

. Is the tide finally turning?? Hallelujah 🎼🎼🎼🎼

Wow. That's great news.

In other words, the court agreed with Cormier’s perspective that transgender women are not women and that she never should have been expected to understand that a locker room for women would include transgender women. By not disclosing that it was taking the opposite position — respecting transgender people according to their gender identity — Planet Fitness was “failing to reveal a material fact” in an attempt to “mislead or deceive the consumer,” as the relevant Michigan law reads.

This is the crux of it for businesses. If they are going to have policies that make intimate spaces mixed sex then they need to be very clear to their customers this is the case.

The hits keep on coming!

By not disclosing that it was taking the opposite position — respecting transgender people according to their gender identity — Planet Fitness was “failing to reveal a material fact” in an attempt to “mislead or deceive the consumer,”

This should come as a stark warning to all who seek to base policy on “transwomen are women”, that they are now potentially failing to reveal material facts in an attempt to mislead or deceive

This is the crux of it for businesses. If they are going to have policies that make intimate spaces mixed sex then they need to be very clear to their customers this is the case

Maybe it should have to be displayed like the food hygiene grading.

A notice stating that trans people regardless of whether they have taken steps to transition or not will or won't be in the locker rooms.

Rather than hidden away amongst thousands of policies on a website or on the small.print if any signed membership contracts where it's easily missed.

Excellent outcome though

This is the crux of it for businesses. If they are going to have policies that make intimate spaces mixed sex then they need to be very clear to their customers this is the case.

I agree. Pretending that basing segregation on gender, doesn't then result in mixed sex, is deceitful.

If people are going to dismantle women's protections, at least have the bloody balls to say so.

Pretending that swapping your gender identity means that your sex is irrelevant, is basic gaslighting.

This is where it could get interesting. Whilst this case is in the USA what this could come down to is contract law in the UK.

My gym offers single space changing. To change that will mean a new contract and potential loss of business if that business chooses not to retain single sex spaces.

'Pretending that swapping your gender identity means that your sex is irrelevant, is basic gaslighting.'

Absolutely right, and now it seems a court agrees. Fantastic news. More of this please

Maybe we should all ask our gyms what their policies are if we haven't already done so.

To change that will mean a new contract and potential loss of business if that business chooses not to retain single sex spaces.

Exactly. Let's find out exactly how many women (and men), will willingly sign up to a changing room that they know is mixed sex.

And then let's see what a 'legitimate aim,' suddenly looks like.

Thank goodness for common sense.

Yes but even buried in contract small print all it takes is one issue at that establishment and that gym will lose customers. Some will be more affected than others e.g women only gyms. That is their usp and will undermine their entire business model.

And this is where women have the stronger hand.

Because I have read on here about 500,000 trans people across the UK? Apols if wrong.

There are around 34 million women. Gyms that won't offer the 34 million what they want will cease to exist. The majority of business won't take that risk. Some will, depending on their target market, but it will be small numbers.

By not disclosing that it was taking the opposite position — respecting transgender people according to their gender identity — Planet Fitness was “failing to reveal a material fact” in an attempt to “mislead or deceive the consumer,

This is something that Girl Guides should be held accountable for as well. Their policy is to deliberately withhold material facts from parents when it comes to camps/sleepovers/washing & toilet facilities.

There is a women only gym near me. Looking at their website and social media it caters for women of all ages but it appears to be particularly popular with the over 50's and Muslim women (we have a sizeable Muslim population).

They have a photo of their changing room. It's a small room with benches and lockers. No cubicles as far as I can tell. Being forced to admit members based on gender identity would probably shut this business within 12 months or less.

Great news

If you, as a business, firmly believe that TWAW and can use the women's changing rooms, then pin your colours to the mast and let everyone know that is your position. Let customers decide whether to use the business or not.

Don't obfuscate the issue

Girl Guides - are you listening yet?

The author of the article I've linked to clearly doesn't approve of the court's decision and is being decidedly huffy about it!

For some reason, I find that impotent huffiness quite entertaining.

Girl guides is a separate issue although I am not disagreeing with your point.

This is about paid for services (there is an argument GG fall into this category but this isn't what I am really talking about).

Gyms will have to advertise what they are doing. They will have to put up notices. If they decide to allow or disallow - either way they will have to make their position very clear or they run the deception/misleading risk as has occurred in the USA case above. Because the service offered in the original contract would have materially changed. If self id is introduced they will need to make this clear for all service users, whether they are trans or not. It would have to be overt otherwise mayhem will ensue.

This for them could mean big losses. Annual contracts will be null and void as the original terms have changed.

I would expect that women only gyms will see a surge in clientele as these will be the only ones that could probably maintain a proportionate exclusion. Others will struggle a bit more to justify it.

It would all be so much clearer if rooms were labelled Penis and No Penis, rather than men and women (although that in itself is pandering to the TWAW crowd).

Finally, good sense prevails! Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for this crap.

God no, Squirrel. That’s far too much in the vein of Men and Not Men. Just let’s stick with the knowledge that if there’s a penis about, it’s attached to a man.

Money talks.

Gyms in the USA will also be awake to the possibility of being sued by women, irate (etc) at finding male members in the women's changing rooms.

Excellent news!

Penis or no penis though? Can't get on board with that. Men and women works just fine.

In other words, the court agreed with Cormier’s perspective that transgender women are notwomen and that she never should have been expected to understand that a locker room for women would include transgender women.

Yes, that's right Zack, well done. When you stop obfuscating and use a term like "men who self identify as women" the issue becomes perfectly clear. Language matters.