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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Michigan court concludes that trans women are NOT women

107 replies

Seeingadistance · 31/07/2018 15:13

thinkprogress.org/michigan-court-anti-transgender-planet-fitness-ruling-11d48ac24db8/

Well done to Yvette Cormier for continuing to fight against Planet Fitness's decision to penalise her for pointing out that there was a man in the women's changing room.

OP posts:
AsAProfessionalFekko · 01/08/2018 16:32

Well it's nice to see that the freemasons have decide to allow trans women ('are women, repeat after me') to remain members in their male only club and allow trans women to join up. How... Interesting.

GladAllOver · 01/08/2018 20:11

Er no. They haven't allowed trans women to join up. They have allowed men who are already members to stay members after transition

AsAProfessionalFekko · 01/08/2018 20:32

that's right -to remain a member if they joined as Fred then become Mary. But they will be have to be called Brother Mary (following tradition).

My second 'trans women' was supposed to be a 'trans men' but my autocorrect didn't like it (maybe because it's a rarer phrase than trans women).

Tryingtolisten2 · 01/08/2018 21:28

NEWSFLASH!

The U.K. is not an additional state of USA. This ruling has zero consequence in the U.K. where the EQ Act 2010 counts.

... normal service resuming

TheCountryGirl · 01/08/2018 21:34
  • NEWSFLASH!

The U.K. is not an additional state of USA. This ruling has zero consequence in the U.K. where the EQ Act 2010 counts.

... normal service resuming*

Poor Trying is scared shitless!! 😂😂😂

TerfsUp · 02/08/2018 07:50

NEWSFLASH!

This thread is about the Michigan court's ruling, @tryingtolisten2, it is not about the Equality Act 2010.

TerfsUp · 02/08/2018 07:51

One can try to listen but it is impossible to hear when one's head is filled with rubbish.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/08/2018 12:08

Great news, but did anyone read the actual ruling? The incursion of the trans narrative into even legal speak is downright scary!

"Plaintiff's actions indicate that she strongly preferred a locker room and a restroom in which individuals who are assigned biologically male are not present, and it is thus reasonable to infer that defendants’ failure to inform plaintiff of the unwritten policy affected her decision to join the gym"

ToeToToe · 02/08/2018 14:11

assigned male at birth

I know - it's ludicrous. It's a observation - "assigned" makes it sound like luck of the draw or random.

I went on one of those machines at the gym yesterday - the one that weighs you, measure muscle mass, and fat and stuff. Notably it asks "gender at birth M/F?"

Clearly because there is a measurable, physical, biological difference between males and females - which is not altered by taking cross sex hormones, or surgery.

I'm guessing if a transwoman selected 'F' instead of 'M' the results would be rather skewed.

Mossandclover · 02/08/2018 17:29

Do many babies change gender/sex as they are born? Makes you wonder why they bother with scans, in utero testing, genetics testing etc if babies do something as drastic as changing their biological sex at birth. Is there any difference between vaginal and Caesarean deliveries?

FloralBunting · 02/08/2018 17:36

I was assigned with brown eyes at birth, but as I grew older, I realized that internally, my sense of eyecolour was actually green. So I identify as a green eyed girl now, and find myself incredibly upset if someone dedicates Van Morrison songs to me.

Ereshkigal · 02/08/2018 17:47

Floral Grin

SarahAr · 02/08/2018 22:47

As has been repeatedly mentioned, the EA exceptions have to be applied on a case by case basis. Any gym that bans all trans women from the women's changing room is breaking equality law.

Please do post their names on MN and I will ask the EHRC to write to them to remind them of their legal responsibilities.

Therefore, you could expect to find trans women in any changing room in the UK. And this is as it should be. Trans women are women.

As to the need for firms to put this in their contract or put up warning signs. Turns out that courts expect firms to follow the law. Fun that. So the idea that a court would rule against a firm in the UK for failing to put "we follow the law" in their contracts is laughable.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 02/08/2018 22:53

I stopped reading at the transwomen are women fallacy. I imagine most people did.

littlbrowndog · 02/08/2018 23:04

Yeah I did when I seen Sarah r trotting out that one

No one believes that stuff Sarah r. They really really don’t

LemonJello · 02/08/2018 23:27

SarahAr, transwomen being in women’s changing rooms compromises their right to privacy, dignity and safety.

We don’t want you there.

The fact that you push to be there despite our objections speaks volumes.

You write to the EHRC or whatever. But forcing women to comply will never make them accept you.

TornFromTheInside · 02/08/2018 23:35

Actually SarahAr, you're only half right.

The law still does allow for objective separation of transexual's in changing rooms, but it must justify this (which won't be easy for most services).

Taken from the guidance on Equality Law:

The changing facilities in a women-only gym are located in a room that is only accessible by stairs. The gym owner suggests to disabled users of the gym with mobility impairments that they can change in a corner of the gym itself. This is unlikely to be a reasonable alternative method of making the service available, since it may significantly infringe upon people's dignity.

However, providing an alternative private room to change in may be a reasonable adjustment.

You must also avoid discriminating against transsexual people. Treat a transsexual person as belonging to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with) unless you can objectively justify treating them differently.

For example:

A clothes shop has separate changing areas for men and for women with individual cubicles. The shop concludes it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as the privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of the separate cubicles.

Where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from someone of their preferred gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender unless there are strong reasons not to do so.

Where someone has a gender recognition certificate they should be treated in their acquired gender for all purposes.

and again

Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.

A business may have a policy about providing its service to transsexual users, but this policy must still be applied on a case-by-case basis. It is necessary to balance the needs of the transsexual person for the service, and the disadvantage to them if they are refused access to it, against the needs of other users, and any disadvantage to them, if the transsexual person is allowed access. To do this may require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user). Care should be taken in each case to avoid a decision based on ignorance or prejudice.

TornFromTheInside · 02/08/2018 23:42

Regardless of SarahAr's views, they are right in as much as the law is effectively forcing businesses to treat transwomen as women, providing they have a GRC. Soon, the GRC might be effectively abandoned.

Of course, service providers will not want to announce this issue, they'd rather let it slip under the radar as it's likely to have a negative impact on business, but equally, there's no obligation to state the obvious - that the service provider is 'law abiding'.

Many of us might not like this, but it is the reality of how things already are.

iamawoman · 03/08/2018 06:41

If they are transexual and have a grc are the key words on this example, at present most in the transgender community do not meet this criteria

MsBeaujangles · 03/08/2018 09:11

Sarah AR

Therefore, you could expect to find trans women in any changing room in the UK. And this is as it should be. Trans women are women.

It is hard to see how single sex provision/facilities that are segregated based on differences in sexed bodies remain justifiable (proportionate means to a legitimate aim) if they allow just some oppositely sexed bodies in to them. If a changing room is allowed to be single single sex to afford females privacy, dignity and safety, but allows people with male sexed bodies in because they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, couldn't male bodied people, with the protected characteristic of sex, say that seeing as the facility is allowing both female sexed bodied people and male sexed bodied people access, the legitimate aim is nonsense and therefore they (with the protected characteristic of sex) are being discriminated against!

MsBeaujangles · 03/08/2018 09:14

I think it has got to a position whereby organisations should declare what the legitimate aim of their single sex provision is. This will allow informed decisions to be made about who should and shouldn't access them.

Sarah AR What is the trans inclusive argument for single sex provision? What legitimate aim is there for single sex provision that includes both males and females?

Ereshkigal · 03/08/2018 09:15

I agree. Given that most of these males are considered male in law as well as male bodied, it could possibly be construed as discrimination. As with AWS.

Juells · 03/08/2018 09:31

No one believes that stuff Sarah r. They really really don’t

^^ This

ToeToToe · 03/08/2018 09:35

No - nobody really believes transwomen are women. It's just a chant, a Tshirt slogan.

Misogynists like Owen Jones and Dr Harrop wouldn't be so hot on transwomen's rights if they really thought they were women. They stick up for the fellow penises. Penis rights to do what they like.

Ucantarguewistupid · 03/08/2018 09:37

Brilliant news! Let's hope this continues and sense starts to prevail everywhere!