Saying no to men

[OunceOfFlounce]

I've heard the idea on here that its useful for a woman to say no to a man about something trivial in order to see how he reacts. I like this idea a lot and wonder if anyone could give an example of when they've done this irl and how they've interpreted the results?

I don't really get this kind of advice anywhere other than here.

It's also about what you don't do. Don't fill in awkward silences. If the man you're talking to is socially inept fine, it's not your job to make him feel better. I know that's controversial, and it's not meant as anti anyone not neurotypical or whatever, but just don't smooth men's social interactions for them. Make them make the effort.
Personally I don't ever make tea at work unless it's only women in the office. I hadn't noticed that the only times I made it were for women, I had been intentionally avoiding doing it because I feel that men pigeon hole you if you're the type to make tea for everyone. You become a mumsy, caretaker type no matter what your job role is in relation to theirs. So I don't do it. I have the kind of job where I don't spend much time in the office which makes it easier to avoid.
I don't laugh at jokes that aren't funny out of politeness.
I don't pretend to be interested in uninteresting things.
If a woman gets talked over in group discussions I call out the bloke who did it and get her to finish what she was saying.
If a bloke is being creepy and inappropriate I will tell him so, in front of other men if possible.
I can do all this because I'm a butch dyke and my sexual value to men is about zero. I don't care if they think I'm a ball breaker. Funnily enough most men don't hate me,I have many male friends. They generally don't laugh at unfunny jokes or pretend to be interested in a boring story either (perhaps if it's the boss?) The ones that do hate me, really detest me and would probably wish harm on me. I find they're the least well-adjusted ones, and probably the biggest risk.
All this is probably irrelevant to the thread, I'm not gloating (is life easier or harder if you're openly gay? Who knows) but I find it both fascinating and depressing how deep seated the need to please and to be polite is in most women, to their own detriment.

My friend's husband is a wheedler, he set my radar dinging the first time I met him.

He is everso hospitable and charming but would never take my no for an answer when he offered me drinks. Would then sit next to me, top up my drink when I wasn't looking, berate me for not drinking, tell me I was insulting him by not drinking my wine.

It took a couple of times of going out with them and being physically ill through drink to realise what he was doing.

After I realised I never sat near him again on nights out. About a year later my friend confided he rapes her every night and has also beaten her in front of the DC.

There is something very sinister beneath his superficial charm.

Goldagainstthesoldier that's grim. I hope she gets out ok.

I wish I had trusted my gut feeling more when I was younger, but I got there.
A salesman tested me out once by standing next to me while I was sitting and told he was testing out boundaries, which was unusual and enlightening.

I came out of an abusive relationship. When I was next interested in a bloke I went out of my way to only present myself and be as I am. For example, first date I wore my favourite outfit (wide jeans, trainers, etc) and did not dress for him.

We’re now married and he says, with respect, that when we got together he felt I was really checking him out and making sure he wasn’t like my dad (or the previous guy). He has no problems with me having done that. To him it makes total sense and he felt no slight that I did it to him. He’s not a brittle man. Brittle men are dangerous.

I think the most important thing is to just pay attention. It is surprising what sorts of thing men will tell you about themselves if you just listen, nod and smile.
While I am very opinionated, I tend to not argue with men I am on a first date with. Just nod, smile and ask questions.

Most men I went on dates with were of the type that tried very hard to pretend to be the kind of man they thought a woman would be attracted to. I noticed because I am not an average women, so a man claiming to just love kittens and puppies and romantic dinners ... well.
If I had talked more, they might have changed their pretend personality to suit me, but I wouldn't have known who they really are.

There are of course those who openly disregard your opinions, comfort and boundaries, but those are much easier to spot, I think.

If you are aware that you need to screen men you date, that you need to be careful, that's half the battle.

I dislike using specific tests, as those will be spread on the internet and everyone will know about them, eventually.

Just pay attention.

FlyingOink, me too. It's all I want for Christmas.

Oh, he also sent me a message once saying "hello sexy" and when I replied coldly "I don't think you meant to send this message to me" he replied that he was just testing my reaction.

Cock. I wish he'd drop dead.

HestiaParthenos what kind of thing did you find out by using that method? I'd have thought the men were trying any old route to get a shag, and might not have necessarily been representing their innermost being. Which itself further demonstrates that men will happily decide whether or not to have sex with someone based on looks but women dare not (or would prefer not? I don't know)
Was it all puppies and kittens or did you get any weird and wonderful stuff out of them? Did they even notice you weren't contributing? That would speak volumes I think.

Goldagainstthesoldier he sounds awful. I always wish that men like that get exposed as what they really are. They rarely do, though.

I wsh that too, flying, but my dad was the same and he's almost 70 now and continues unchecked...

Was it all puppies and kittens or did you get any weird and wonderful stuff out of them? Did they even notice you weren't contributing? That would speak volumes I think.

I am not sure any man ever noticed that I was being unusually (for me) quiet. I did say things, of course, but more tidbits of smalltalk than anything substantial.
I suppose that's the normal way women are experienced to communicate.

Several guys admitted to watching porn (though they probably would have if I had outright asked them without sounding too disapproving?), but apart from that it was nothing more shocking than them letting it show that they weren't interested in me because of me, but just wanted some woman.
Which for me was a reason to rapidly lose interest.

There might also have been some weird political opinions and some unreasonable complaints about ex-girlfriends, but I can't recall anything that stands out.

The most shocking thing a guy let show to me was not when I was on a date but playing pen&paper roleplay games.
Apparently, dosing someone with a love potion, which results in a relationship and marriage, isn't rape.

Not sure if he would have behaved the same if he was trying to get into my pants ... he did want to get into the pants of another woman in the group, so ...

FlyingOink

I was reading your post and thinking - need some of that- pronto! When you mentioned you are a lesbian a bit further down it made sense.

I've often noticed it with lesbian colleagues that they have absolutely not problem saying no to men and do none of that ego stroking or pandering.

I suppose that lesbians are so central to feminism - like the backbone.

they weren't interested in me because of me, but just wanted some woman
That's normal though isn't it? Otherwise straight people would only form relationships after an extended formal introduction, no?
Of course, you're very right about screening dates. Everyone should do this. If you can't walk away from an unsuccessful date cheerfully vowing never to contact that person again you shouldn't be dating! But I'm sure many of us have been in a situation where loneliness, horn and optimism blind you to the very underwhelming reality sat across from you in the pub

That's normal though isn't it? Otherwise straight people would only form relationships after an extended formal introduction, no?

I am usually only attracted to men who have something in common with me. Doesn't have to be much, but being a tad bit gender non conforming is a plus.
For example, I am not sure I would be interested in a man who is too interested in soccer and drinking beer, therefore wouldn't try and court a man by pretending to like those things. (I also think it is dishonest. I don't mind men who genuinely like kittens, but it is rather easy to see which ones do, and which ones just pretend to.)

WeRiseUp
Thank you, I wasn't blowing my own trumpet. I was pointing out that the only reason I can act this way is because it won't cost me my relationship, or my reputation, etc. The flip side is that I get discriminated against in other ways.
I've noticed it isn't just lesbians who act in a similar way - not unfriendly, just not unnecessarily acquiescent- it's older women in authority too. Might have something to do with opting out of the "sexy" pool? I don't know.
older women in authority are very sexy in my book but nobody reads my book

HestiaParthenos I get that, but most men, nice or not, interesting or not, gender non-conforming or not, will make a decision on whether they would sleep with a woman within minutes of seeing her, and certainly before talking to her. Of course men will also seek out like-minded women to form relationships with, but plenty of relationships started because bloke saw woman and thought "Hubba Hubba". They just happened to get on as well. (Hopefully!)

Well, yes, there's a reason I am still single. I am not sure whether I should be less choosy or not.
When I see what other women put up with (and not even abuse, just thoughtlessness and annoying behaviour) I sometimes think being a bit lonely isn't as bad ...

Stick to your guns. It's better to be lonely and single than lonely in a bad relationship.

I've always said no to men. I'm not interested in their bullshit.

Beware though. No fucker will like you for it and you will get into situations where people actively ask you to tiptoe around certain blokes because the lies keep the show going and the truth is unpalatable, and when you say no, YOU will be the pariah, not him.

BUT, I'm a teller of truth. You will also be known as a rager, an angry woman (women's anger is easily dismissed. Men's anger is violent and righteous).

Never be cowed. Never let a man's dick-head truth suppress your absolute truth.

And keep on saying No. No I don't want that. No you're wrong. No I don't agree. No I don't think that's right. No. No. No. No

NO.

@FlyingOink, I'm not a butch dyke.

I'm a completely femme bi who's never felt any compunction about saying Fuck Off to bell-end blokes.

ILikeyourHairyHands
Fair play to you, my theory was that my non-existent sexual value in the eyes of men made it easier, not that it was a prerequisite. In fact, if you're conventionally attractive you must come up against more bullshit than I do just for speaking your mind.
And you're absolutely right about the difference between men's and women's anger. Men's anger is always justified and women's always irrational, it's meant I've had to tone down my anger despite what I've written before, and in a way I feel less authentic as a result.
Mind you, when I show my anger (which now is very rarely) it seems to terrify men

A simple, but illuminating way of saying no to men is to simply not get out of their way when walking down a pavement. I don't mean that you should actively get in their way, but more to hold the line you're walking in. Once you start to do this consciously, it becomes really apparent the side stepping and dodging we do in order to facilitate men in public space, and how much men just assume you're going to do this for them.

I agree that women need to trust their instincts and this is actually discouraged by society, and I found the posted you tube vid about Ted Bundy enlightening.
In the Bundy case, however, I am honestly surprised that any women became suspect. I would have to read up on what triggered that, maybe they were some truly creepy actions, but from the one interview I know of Bundy, the one before his death, where he talks about pornography, he comes across so convincing, honest and trustworthy, I can easily believe he could sell me a bridge. If he was like that with his victims, I can well understand why they were misled until it was too late.

Fair play to you, my theory was that my non-existent sexual value in the eyes of men made it easier, not that it was a prerequisite

I think the most important thing is that you aren't emotionally invested in men.

An attitude a heterosexual woman can have, too, if she isn't too desperate for a relationship, or for male approval in general.

And then there's the question of how willing you are to risk your safety by telling men no.

I am quite in favour of saying "yes, but I need to go to the toilet first" and then disappearing through the back door, if that's what it needs to keep you safe.

The most important thing for safety is to be able to think the "no".

If you tell a man "I'd rather not" and he persists, then that tells you all that his resisting a clear "no" does, doesn't it?

Melanippe I totally agree. I hold my space in the gym by standing there (in the space I am using!) with a hand on hip between sets. It is amazing how many men walk almost in to me (I’m not on the way to anything and it’s not that busy!) because they’re so used to having people leap out of there way.

They also crowd in behind you at tills. I find the best way to deal with this is to lean back, or take a small step back to stand with your weight off centre. They soon back off.