regressive and (actually transphobic) supporters of the "woman's place" position

[drwitch]

This is just a suggestion that perhaps we should be careful about retweeting and linking articles that are from the socially conservative viewpoint. writing by people Paul Embrey or Brendan O'Neil and many articles in the Daily Mail for example will often include lots that I agree with but there will be a couple of remarks that suggest that it is the non-conformity that bothers them rather than the need to provide sex based exemptions. It is a very thin line between a justification of safe spaces for women because of the interaction between physical differences and historic oppression and one that thinks women are just delicate flowers that shouldn't say boo to a goose. I think some article on the right get the balance wrong so we should watch out

On a similar note I think the concentration on bathrooms is dangerous it smacks too much of trumps bathroom ban, we should talk more about women only short lists, refuges, sports and pay monitioring

Are you pro-women, garam? Do you believe women should have their rights and protections upheld and enforced? Do you believe women have the right to their own boundaries? Do you believe women have the right to say no?

Of course, including all women, trans and 'not-trans'.

I'm still waiting to hear which "rights" trans people currently don't have or which some women's groups are trying to limit.

Garam "Some women's groups such as WPUK, TransgenderTrend, Fairplayforwomen, seem to exclusively campaign around limiting trans rights, and scarcely do any other actual campaigning for women rights and broader feminist ideals, these are the anti-trans women groups."

Which "trans rights" are being limited here, please? Please be very specific, Thank you.

[And, have you actually read anything on any of those web sites, where it is made very clear that all those involved respect and uphold transpeople's current rights?]

Of course, including all women, trans and 'not-trans'.

garam Do you include all the people that Stonewall do in your definition of 'trans'?

If not, then who do you include?

As in:

And yet still no answer as to whether 2D + 69 = L.

So Garam you are making generalised statements that you are unable to support with any real evidence?

Oh god. Let's not have garam successfully derail yet another thread. Back on topic:

Apart from anything else, there will be women who have serious concerns about self-ID who are themselves conservatives. If we agree on this one thing then we can work on it together, even if we don't agree on other things.

Exactly. Are only left wing women allowed an opinion on this?

Garam, why do you choose to frame the defence of protections and rights of women and girls as an "unrelenting barrage of hate and abuse towards the trans community". Please explain. Thank you.

bumbungo not even if I self identify as one?

Conservative, even (gasp) religious women are going to be some of the women most impacted by the removal of sex segregated spaces and provisions if changes goes through.

Personally, I don't care if a woman's reason for not wanting to be in a mixed space is due to feminist reasons, personal trauma, or a deeply held religious belief that the sexes are meant to be separate. Losing those spaces may impact all of us for different reasons - but we'll all still lose rights and freedoms if they go so we need to work together to defend them.

And yes, let's not turn this into fights of who is the purest - I'm not about to be linking to a pro-life campaign, but if someone points out that orthodox Christians are not going to be able to go swimming if they lose their women only sessions then I will amplify their voice.

You asked me a question, I answered. let's move on.

Remind me what that question you haven't answered yet is.....

I think my point is that the feminst critque of the GRC is not often heard and the debate gets turned into a liberal v. regressive one (see James O Brien etc).

We need more stories like these

twitter thread

Purity politics on the Left is why we are in the ridiculous position of 2D+69=L being a real question. Woke Dudebro "communists" run the show / control the discourse / insist on the linguistical contortionism and have kicked out radfems; of course we are going to centre women in our politics, even women whose politics we don't like.

I am careful in my partial support of right wing women like JHB: I detest her politics. However, these are exceptional times. It has become impossible to be a gender critical feminist and be given a voice in any political sphere in the UK - you either parrot the mantra TWAW or get deplatformed. Sadly, only right wing papers and magazines have the guts to publish pro-women opinions and columns.

The threat women face is not existential, it is real and happening now. If we cannot even name ourselves and thereby identify biology as the source of our oppression, making temporary alliances with those who are not 100% simpatico is the lesser of two evils. My background is hard Marxist, trade union, street campaigning woman. Smearing radfems as right wing shills is as pathetic a slur as the acronym we are "not allowed to say" was: feminism ain't about being likeable to men. Feminism is about all women.

Personally, I don't care if a woman's reason for not wanting to be in a mixed space is due to feminist reasons, personal trauma, or a deeply held religious belief that the sexes are meant to be separate. Losing those spaces may impact all of us for different reasons - but we'll all still lose rights and freedoms if they go so we need to work together to defend them.

Smearing radfems as right wing shills is as pathetic a slur as the acronym we are "not allowed to say" was: feminism ain't about being likeable to men.

YY to both of these.

drwitch Perhaps you should examine closely the content of the web site: fairplayforwomen.com/

plus listen to all the speeches recorded by Woman's Place UK from their meetings: www.youtube.com/channel/UCzFqsUqDzyXEQMJVy42NwUw/videos

plus also read carefully the content of the web site: www.transgendertrend.com/

HashtagLurky Brava! Applause!

It's from a discussion in this thread. The question (paraphrased) was posed, if two people with penises who identify as women are performing fellatio on each other is it lesbian sex?

Of course

On the main point you will find yourself supported by people who disagree on other fronts, but that's just how it is. We vote for one of two political parties, but we don't imagine there are only two kinds of voter. It is worth bearing in mind though and watching for.

On the toilets thing I get why turning it to that every time may be a way of avoiding ever getting around to the other issues, but that is hardly trivial.

Also, as a wiser woman than me told me the other day - men are allowed to and even lauded for engaging in cross party workings to achieve goals, it's only women that get vilified for daring to talk to women outside their political side. Why? Because left wing men want to remain the arbiters of who left wing women talk to, and what we talk about. If we start working as WOMEN rather than just in the pockets we have in the left wing, they lose that control and they hate it.

Molten - that was spot on.
It would be lovely for many people if we were divided. I refuse to be. Long time Green Party member, however I will work with whoever I need to on this issue.