"Gender identity has a durable biological underpinning"

[Macareaux]

Can any of you wise women offer any critique to this claim from endocrine specialists?

growinguptransgender.com/2017/11/18/endocrine-society-consensus-on-a-durable-biological-underpinning-to-gender-identity/

(Scroll down a little bit)

growinguptransgender.com/2017/11/18/endocrine-society-consensus-on-a-durable-biological-underpinning-to-gender-identity/

Clicky link (I hope)

Thats interesting. I don't think anyone here has said transgender people don't exist.
Just that women only spaces should be just that. Women only.

Aren't endocrinologists in the business of prescribing hormones and development of hormone treatments. They are very eager to prescribe puberty blockers at the earliest opportunity and supply a growing market for cross sex hormones. Presumably this approach to gender non conformity gives them a lot of business.

Interesting that none of the "biological underpinnings" relate to endocrinology.

I wonder why lots of endocrinologists would say that treatment is medically necessary and should be covered by medical insurance?

Sorry this is the part suggesting puberty blockers as soon as possible.
It's alarming but not surprising seeing as it is in their interest to do this sort of thing.

The Endocrine Society position statement was discussed in this thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228447-Transing-children

I went through their reference list to see if there was any evidence for their claims - there wasn't.

The first reference, which they use to support their statement that "Data are strong for a biological underpinning to gender identity" is a very short literature review (Saraswat A, et al. Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity. Endocr Pract. 2015 Feb;21(2): 199-204.)

It concludes: 'Because the sample sizes of most studies on this subject were small, the conclusions must be interpreted with caution. Further research is required to assign specific biologic mechanisms for gender identity.'

You cannot conclude from this that "Data are strong for a biological underpinning to gender identity".

Identifying a biological basis for gender dysphoria is a good thing, if it can lead to:
A) rapid and accurate diagnosis of whether an individual is or isn't dysphoric
B) appropriate treatment (counselling and medical interventions if necessary) for those who are dysphoric
C) appropriate treatment (probably counselling) for those who aren't dysphoric

And an end to the nonsense of non dysphoric people being able to 'self id' as 'trans'.

Rereading... I don't mean to imply that I think this basis has been found, just that it would be good if there was solid evidence one way or another.

We are instantiated in biological matter. Everything we think or feel has a biological underpinning. Skills and life experiences (e.g., musical training, reading Braille, being a taxi driver ) are represented and can be observed in the matter of our brains. Does this mean learning an instrument or being a taxi driver or a reader of Braille is a hardwired immutable identity? Nope.

Absolutely Materialist. If observable, reliable biological differences between classes of human are gold-standard evidence allowing us to categorise ourselves into types (as implied here) then why the hell are we being told to ignore biological sex as a category system?

Even if the brain were pink or blue and we could actually see gender on a PET scan, it still wouldn’t explain why gender identity should have more salience than reproductive sex when it comes to creating safe spaces and positive discrimination to rectify millennia of sex-based subjugation.

What Materialist said. File this away as your go-to answer whenever TRAs try to derail with suspect science about innate 'gender identity' (which even they don't believe in, otherwise they would be pushing for a diagnostic test for 'transness').

We don't need to waste time and and bore everyone with a hopelessly convoluted debate about neuroscience and brain sex. We just need to keep bringing it back to the reality and social significance of sexed bodies.

We don't need to waste time and and bore everyone with a hopelessly convoluted debate about neuroscience and brain sex. We just need to keep bringing it back to the reality and social significance of sexed bodies.

This.

Clinicians should avoid harming individuals (via hormone treatment) who have conditions other than gender dysphoria/gender incongruence and who may not benefit from the physical changes associated with this treatment.

For those who want the truth, here is the actual document which does not say what they are claiming it says to the surprise of absolutely not one single person here.
academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558

The Endocrine Society is a USA organisation .. therefore private practice .. therefore motivated by earning income ... has zero relevance to UK NHS.

Like other people I'm really alarmed at this coming from endocrinologists. Psychology is not their field. It financially benefits them for more children to fit the criteria of GD. It financially benefits them for more children to be given hormones. It is sick that they are pushing this and reveals the world of medicine as having a very dark side. Two things I would expect to see: 1. Because brains have plasticity it is likely that people who have been socially conditioned with masculinity, whether directly, as male born, or indirectly as females performing masculinity, their patterns of thought, language and processing may have created similarities that can be observed. 2. Gender is socially constructed. Human brains vary in the extent to which they act instinctively on social cues. So I would expect twins to both have GD if one has. Neither of these facts in any way confirms the idea that gender identity has a durable biological underpinning.

I don't get that @JackyHolyoake Would a senior UK endocrinologist's salary not also be affected by the size of his or her department? And are you aware that many NHS consultants also have private practice?

if you ask an endocrinologist how to use hormones to treat gender dysphoria, that's what they will do.

They won't tell you how to diagnose gender dysphoria, or what the alternative treatments are, or how to treat a person holistically.

To a hammer, everything is a nail.

Sarahcarer what do you make of their claim that in identical twins both are likely to be transgender as opposed to in non identical twins?

ASC

Gender is a social construct. There are innate neurological differences that affect how children respond to social cues about gender.

And why oh f*g why psychologists cannot see this when it is staring them in the f**g face is quite frankly beyond me.

Even if the brain were pink or blue and we could actually see gender on a PET scan, it still wouldn’t explain why gender identity should have more salience than reproductive sex when it comes to creating safe spaces and positive discrimination to rectify millennia of sex-based subjugation.

YY

And so what if there is a biological underpinning of dysphoria? It's not evidence of an opposite sex soul.

I would expect there to be a biological underpinning in some individuals. But that doesn't explain the social contagion aspect.

JackyHolyoake
The Endocrine Society is a USA organisation .. therefore private practice .. therefore motivated by earning income ... has zero relevance to UK NHS.

The Endocrine Society is a worldwide fellowship, including uk endocrinologists. Biology doesn't change whether your in the US or the UK.

SarahCarer
Like other people I'm really alarmed at this coming from endocrinologists. Psychology is not their field. It financially benefits them for more children to fit the criteria of GD. It financially benefits them for more children to be given hormones. It is sick that they are pushing this and reveals the world of medicine as having a very dark side

Gender Dysphoria is not considered in itself to be rooted in pyschology anymore, not only will the Endo's tell you that, but also pyschologists. That is why it has been dismissed as a mental disorder, in the dsm5 and the new icd-11 removes it entirely from mental health to sexual health.

There can be pyschological effects of suffering gender dysphoria and mental health debated in pyschology, but the opinion the root is based in pyschology is no longer considered valid.

Climate change deniers will fight against expert opinion, and you may be able to find a forum a bit like this dedicated to denying climate change, where armchair amateurs try to smugly pick apart expert opinions as though they have equal merit.

Just sayin'