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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Sky news article - 'Women's rights hanging by a thread with changes to transgender law' by Dr Nicola Williams

126 replies

pookypup · 19/07/2018 06:29

Really pleased to see a large media publishing this Dr Nicola Williams article news.sky.com/story/womens-rights-hanging-by-a-thread-with-changes-to-transgender-law-11439448 which gives a very accessible introduction to some concerns around trans debate.

It’s the first one that I’ve noticed on Sky News, hopefully the discussion might be starting.

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pookypup · 20/07/2018 07:22

That’s frightening and a real eye opener for me (don’t engage with Twitter much).

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Newsofas · 20/07/2018 07:36

The poll is frightening. 3 hours left.

busyboysmum · 20/07/2018 07:56

I understand from those in the know that there has been a concerted campaign by TRAs to swing that poll. Which is pathetic really as the unbiased one done on behalf of Pink News showed clearly the real opinion of the population of the UK.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 08:00

Isn't it. Male people and their idiot allies were rattled, so they swamped it. See how absent they were when Mr Joe Public was expressing how he didn't want males in the shower with his daughter. Then Mr Joe Public, assuming these activists have no power, moved on because he thinks it's so utterly ridiculous. The TRAs waited. We see you. You're pathetic.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 08:02

Btw that was a cross post with busyboysmum. We both, independently think you're pathetic, TRAs.

LangCleg · 20/07/2018 09:00

Isn't it. Male people and their idiot allies were rattled, so they swamped it. See how absent they were when Mr Joe Public was expressing how he didn't want males in the shower with his daughter. Then Mr Joe Public, assuming these activists have no power, moved on because he thinks it's so utterly ridiculous. The TRAs waited. We see you. You're pathetic.

Indeed. The first few hours that poll was open and was being responded to by your average Sky News viewer, it pretty much replicated the earlier polls done - at least 3:1 against self-ID. The comments were um... brutal. Joe and Joanne Public are deeply unimpressed.

We all saw it before the International TRA Massive noticed and decided to game it like they game everything else.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 09:36

Do these people not have jobs? Or is their full time job sitting in front of their computer obsessing over themselves and their delusions? Pathetic, quite pathetic.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 09:37

Can you imagine how boring they must be? They have nothing else in their lives. Nothing!

SarahAr · 20/07/2018 09:51

It is now clear exactly where the bollocks Fair Play for Women are spouting is coming from...

According to her bio, Dr Nicola Williams is a research scientist, specializing in biology, who has worked in the pharmaceutical industry. It does not mention if she has legal qualifications. It does mention if she has studied gender studies. It does not mention any tertiary level qualification in a humanities subject at all. It does not mention any professional position within the third sector. According to her bio, her position at FPW is voluntary making her an unqualified amateur.

Yet she clearly feels qualified to take the extreme position Women's rights hanging by a thread!

Either she is a genius, seeing something that all those people with academic or professional experience have missed. Or perhaps she is completely y
out of her depth.

I fully support the right of trans people to live free of fear and discrimination just the same as everyone else

Except Nicola the campaign you are part of is creating a climate of terror amongst the transwomen I know. Fully transitioned medically and legally, they don't want to use a changing room for fear of running into a GC feminist. (BTW GC feminists on MN have threatened to stake out the Ponds on Hampstead Heath and ambush any transwomen who tries to use them)

But if someone who still has their full male anatomy wants the right to enter women's changing rooms, or refuges, or to compete against women and girls in sports, and women have no choice about that, that takes away women's most fundamental right: the right to say no to male-bodied people entering our space

By full male anatomy I am assuming this means a penis. Well the thing is that a transwoman with a penis already has the right to enter women's changing rooms or refuges subject to the exception in the EA. If she means someone who has not transitioned at all, then they don't and won't have this right.

Some trans campaigners want new rules that would mean any man who simply said "I am a woman now" could legally become female, getting along with it unchallenged access to women's changing rooms, hostels, NHS wards and other female-only spaces

She does not say which trans campaigners. Mainstream campaigners are arguing for the Irish system - which requires a statutory declaration before a commissioner for oaths (with a penalty of up to 2 years in jail for a false declaration). She then suggests that becoming legally female gives unchallenged access to sensitive female spaces. But of course it doesn't. Under the EA it is reassigning one's gender that gives access subject to the exceptions.

There would be no official way to tell who was male for purposes of single-sex overnight sleeping accommodation, for women's refuges,... Our sex-based rights will still exist on paper but will be impossible to use on the ground.

If a service provider knows someone is a transwomen and the situation fits into the EA exceptions then they can exclude them. It is that simple. If they can't tell then it is exceeding unlikely the exceptions would apply.

It is worth noting that in 10 years of this provision being on the statute books, there is only one reported case of gender reassignment discrimination, which on the facts clearly did not fit into the exception.

She then goes for the usual suspects. The attacker at Hyde Park who is described as a "trans activist". I don't condone the violence, but this is one individual acting on her own. And she also mentions the Women's Place bomb threat - where we don't even now if it was made by someone fighting for trans rights. She tries to tarnish an entire community and their allies by picking on the actions of a few isolated incidents. This is the typical act of an aggressor in a civil rights struggle.

Sadly after Brexit and Trump we live in a post truth world where all that matters is having an opinion.

LangCleg · 20/07/2018 09:59

So, Sarah, what do you think about the obvious gaming of the poll? Do you think it's interesting that the initial respondents - "civilians" as it were, so neither TRA nor GC, just ordinary Sky News viewers - were adamantly against self-ID? Especially given those civilians were presented with both sides of the arguments from relatively prominent campaigners? This would be a bit worrying, wouldn't it? That the international TRA community had to be mustered to get a flattering result?

OvaHere · 20/07/2018 09:59

Sadly after Brexit and Trump we live in a post truth world where all that matters is having an opinion.

Quite. What could be more post truth than a female penis?

nauticant · 20/07/2018 10:01

The attacker at Hyde Park who is described as a "trans activist". I don't condone the violence, but this is one individual acting on her own.

The point is not that the attack involved one individual (which incidentally is untrue but we expect to hear untruths), it's that something so completely wrong happened, and yet the trans activist community was largely either being silent, minimising, lying about the facts, or supporting the person who ended up with a conviction for violent assault. This means that the community at large seems to either support violence against women or can't bring itself to condemn it.

VaggieMight · 20/07/2018 10:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/07/2018 10:30

Dr Nic Williams' bio does not mention any tertiary level qualification in a humanities subject at all.

God, how shocking, SarahAr! I've got one though. So now I'm qualified as an expert.

pookypup · 20/07/2018 10:31

SarahAr - if you want to question the credibility of spokespeople, wasn’t Sue Pascoe an accountant? Yet she quotes research in her article? Just an observation.

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terryleather · 20/07/2018 10:32

I'm interested to know how the AGP fetishists' and cross dressers' desire to destroy women's boundaries, rights and spaces can be framed as a civil rights struggle...

FloralBunting · 20/07/2018 11:02

"I do not condone violence, but..."

... I do minimize it and dismiss it, which is tantamount to the same thing.

CanineEnigma · 20/07/2018 11:05

Wait... So in a climate where we have people saying that humans can actually, literally, change their biological sex a biologist is being called unqualified because she doesn't have a degree in fucking sociology?

pookypup · 20/07/2018 11:15
Grin
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LangCleg · 20/07/2018 11:21

Wait... So in a climate where we have people saying that humans can actually, literally, change their biological sex a biologist is being called unqualified because she doesn't have a degree in fucking sociology?

Biology is a social construct dontchaknow!

FloralBunting · 20/07/2018 11:35

Ok, now I've got Maureen Lipman in my head, talking on the phone about "At least it's an 'ology'!"

Datun · 20/07/2018 11:42

It does not mention if she has legal qualifications. It does mention if she has studied gender studies. It does not mention any tertiary level qualification in a humanities subject at all.

Oh dear. This is getting more and more desperate.

The only qualification required to understand that women's boundaries must be upheld is to be one.

A crucial qualification, I might add, which appears noticeable by its absence in those who disagree.

Pratchet · 20/07/2018 11:43

You are all amazing, taking these transactivists apart.

Biologifemini · 20/07/2018 11:52

I am a biologist too.
No textbooks have been rewritten.
The whole thing is ridiculous and a farce. You wont get many scientists saying this of course because they just aren’t the type.
Of course people with dysphoria should live in peace. Just not at the expense of women.
I do think that this will die a death pretty soon since you cannot continue saying one thing, while ignoring the facts. Female is just a list of objective characteristics. No law can seriously change this.

Beamur · 20/07/2018 12:13

Sadly after Brexit and Trump we live in a post truth world where all that matters is having an opinion.

Quite. What could be more post truth than a female penis?

^^ This