13yr old dd believes men have it worse.

[Donthugmeimscared]

A few times lately dd I have been watching things with dd and the subject of domestic violence or rape etc comes up. We talk alot about everything and she's usually very open to talk about most subjects but when it comes to anything like this I get "but what about men" or "I feel sorry for men as they have it so much harder and no one cares or has places to help them". It seems she honestly believes that women have it easy these days and thinks feminism is stupid and man hating. It's like she can't even talk about anything to do with women without mentioning how hard men have it.

When I pointed out that they could create their own places to support each other she thought this was not fair as men sorted everything out for women to get help and we should do the same for them.

So I thought I'd ask all of you how I should talk to her about this. I'm not the best at explaining myself and you all seem so much more articulate and a lot smarter than me. Or should i just leave her to it in the hope she will one day change her views.

That’s so bloody depressing. I would guess she has a close friend with a parent who hates feminism. Maybe discuss women who are uncomfortable with feminism with her.

Tell her that men did not " sort out" women's refuges to protect women and children from domestic abuse. A woman did all by herself

I think it's quite common at that age to be a bit like that as girls can be so boy obsessed they end up buying into some of the crap boys come out with.

That’s so bloody depressing. I would guess she has a close friend with a parent who hates feminism. Maybe discuss women who are uncomfortable with feminism with her.

I have told her that many times. She seems to think that everything is fine now so why do we need feminism. I guess part of that is because she is young. She has mainly male friends and is a member of the army cadets so probably gets more of a male perspective on things than anything else.

It just strikes me strange how she is very intelligent and usually so open for debate but just won't even listen when it comes to this.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/apr/28/domestic-violence-first-womens-refuge-saved-my-life

Is her dad on the scene?
Tbh, a big nightmare for me would be to separate and see my children fortnightly or less, which is a reality for more men than women. Is it this sort of thing that she is referring to?

Her dad isn't aloud to see them due to him being abusive to her brothers. She doesn't talk about that she believes that just as many men are raped and subject to domestic abuse but all we care about is women. I've pointed out that none if this is true but I get shut down. Sadly she is much better with words than I am so I find it hard to express what I mean.

Maybe I find it odd as I was never interested in boys (still not really) so can't understand the desire to please.

OP, I think there is a positive side to this. If she feels sorry for men it must mean that she feels positive about her own life (as a woman) and believes that she has a good future ahead of her. Which is great!

Many women come to feminism later in the day - that's okay. And many teens have a blinkered, inaccurate view of the world - that's okay too. She is inexperienced and naive and has a lot to learn.

She may be parroting things that she has heard from others - can you give her some feminist literature to introduce her to some challenging viewpoints? She might be old enough for Caitlin Moran's How to Be a Woman.

Sounds like YouTube, either herself or via her male friends.

With teenagers imo it is so vital to let her speak and to listen. She is forming her views, trying her thoughts out. It isn't our jobs to get them to think the same as us. Let's face it, Erin Pizzey would express some of the same views these days wouldn't she? And the rate of violence by women against men is on the rise according to a (female, very feminist) GP friend of mine.

To me, these views your dd are expressing are misinterpretations. And you can certainly correct some of the factual errors. But they are coming from somewhere. She is having an interesting experience in the cadets. Did you do the cadets? Does she have combat training and if so does she do it with the male recruits? You could find out a bit more about her own experience. I would let her expressed opinions be - well, say your own, but don't try to change hers - but get her to think a bit more about what she is actually seeing around her?

That's a good point I didn't really think of it that way. I will look into getting her some books though as she's a keen reader so always excited to read something new.

I was just thinking that what has happened with her younger brothers may also be part of why she feels this way.

I thought like this in my teens, it was only later I really worked out what it was about.

TBH I would stop trying to convince her, may be correct some facts (for example, it was women who arranged refuges!) and instead recognise that it's lovely she's empathetic, even if you wish she would be a bit harder hearted. It's easier to start soft and toughen up.

Maybe start laying the foundations for healthy relationship goals/templates etc and learning how to be assertive and set boundaries for herself, be aware of her own self preservation while being empathetic, etc, just in case her kind and caring nature leads her to be taken in by a little boy lost abusive type who will sap her emotional resources. That's a more urgent priority IMO than making sure she discovers feminism, that will come in time.

Look up some news paper reporting from when rape in marriage became illegal and see the opposition to that.

Have a look at the history of refuges.

Also men who are on the receiving end of DV don't want or need shelters, the patterns of abuse are different and the routes out are different.

Also 2 women a week are killed by a partner or ex partner, how many men are?

This might shock her but... you could show her the list of women killed by their partners or exes in the last year. Someone is keeping a record of this (unable to link). The website has a small explanation of each case - so you can see that the victims' circumstances, ages, social status and national/ ethnic origin vary a lot but the background problem of misogyny and make violence remains.

Hopefully someone can provide a link!

I never did cadets as the idea of being shouted at and marching about was not my idea of fun. Her group is mainly male and they do all training together. She absolutely loves it there and is away for two weeks in the holidays with them. A girl from year 10 talked her into joining and has been guiding her on how to do things there since. She's found she has a real eye for shooting and that she's one of the best at push ups. I like her going as it seems to take her away from all the pressures about social media and as they all dress and have to look pretty much the same for a couple of hours a week there is no worry about looks just being physically strong.

Many children who have an abusive parent have a lot of anger about them that can't be taken to them so they project that onto the parent who stayed with them and is usually emotionally available, safe and also the mum.

as part of that dynamic they reject anything associated with their mum and women in general, aligning herself with the menz.

It's probably nothing you've done and much more to do with what her father has done and she's not allowed to see him. Can you get her some therapy as part of family therapy? Also is their a trusted female friend/ relative that could start to become a confidente for her and start to engage her critical thinking? It's a difficult dynamic I found and I had to get some input to help keep a channel of communication open and also rebut my daughters dismissal of me and women in general- she had part of her father in her that put me and women down (unconscious).

Also an age thing where at 13 ish often girls really change into someone you don't know - hang on in there - it's normal - keep boundaries and communication channel and they eventually start to revert back to the girl you knew though not entirely - tough on lone parents and also part of normal development

I understand you’ve had awful experiences, but at 13years old, is it really necessary to hammer home how hard females get it?
Can you not just be there to guide her ?

Bertie agree and I have found that by that age she wouldn't take action on my say-so alone unless as consequences but if someone else she trusted said the same things, she started to take note and change her thinking and behaviour

Finding ways to point out what's healthy and not in relationships, without her hearing it as criticism, took some work on my side and also creative thinking!

I think this is an age thing. A lot of girls prefer to distance themselves from feminism. I remember feeling like this when I was a teenager. My own dd is much less interested or concerned about women's issues than my 15 year old DS. He seems much more vocal about the inequality that women face and she just shrugs and disagrees or doesn't react. I wonder if this is self preservation. Not wanting to think about or admit any form of weakness or if men are just as vulnerable then girls can overcome feelings of being so vulnerable.

She could well be thinking about her little brothers, that it is unjust that boys/men's struggles are not highlighted. But it is not that one should trump the other. The struggles are a human problem, it's just that one group is dis proportionally affected, but it's not a male/female competition. Hopefully she's interested in the books she can fight for the rights of both!

She’ll live and learn

Perhaps look at the book Rebel Girls (not sure if a bit too young), lots of stories of inspirational women as well as a bit of background to female oppression.

She sounds to me like a 13 yo who just hit puberty and will challenge everything she was taught so far. As teens tend to do imo (well, when I was one). I wouldn't challenge her passionately on this, but ask questions to make her think and get a subscription for yourself for a magazine with feminist views and leave it laying around and leave it like that.

Disclaimer: I don't have teenagers

Also I think at 13 life does look quite good to girls- they often have more female than male teachers, they tend to hit puberty before the boys so often feel older and more sophisticated than the boys in the class, and at 13 are often physically equal to and mentally outstripping the boys (school work wise). So I would just point out that women set up refuges etc, and then just agree “men should have them to- why don’t they?” and then just wait!

I would tend to agree, she is arguing with you because she is at that developmental stage, and that’s the way to oppose you. However, your views will still go in. I would do more listening than showing/debating. Nurture her sharing her opinions and developing her critical thinking skills. Don’t shut her down.

If her brothers were abused and not her, then surely it's natural she believes males suffer abuse at least as much as females. It's just reflecting her lived experience.