13yr old dd believes men have it worse.

[Donthugmeimscared]

A few times lately dd I have been watching things with dd and the subject of domestic violence or rape etc comes up. We talk alot about everything and she's usually very open to talk about most subjects but when it comes to anything like this I get "but what about men" or "I feel sorry for men as they have it so much harder and no one cares or has places to help them". It seems she honestly believes that women have it easy these days and thinks feminism is stupid and man hating. It's like she can't even talk about anything to do with women without mentioning how hard men have it.

When I pointed out that they could create their own places to support each other she thought this was not fair as men sorted everything out for women to get help and we should do the same for them.

So I thought I'd ask all of you how I should talk to her about this. I'm not the best at explaining myself and you all seem so much more articulate and a lot smarter than me. Or should i just leave her to it in the hope she will one day change her views.

I wouldn't push it either and would let her reach her own conclusions. It's likely that most of her female peers are outperforming the boys at school and that more will attend uni as the gap is still growing I believe. Maybe she is noticing all the schemes for girls (and their absence for boys) without having lived the situation which had led to to this being seen as necessary.

I don't think it's your job to tell her what to think, and I agree this is her being a teenager and disagreeing because it's you.

She'll learn to connect the dots in her own time. In the mean time, it's good, surely, for girls to grow up with the belief that they have just as much opportunity as boys.

In time, she'll look at the wider world. She'll learn about what is happening to Rohingya women, about ISIS and the Taliban, about the American right, about our home grown bigots in Northern Ireland, about rape prosecution statistics over here, and she will see. At 13, she doesn't need that shit in her head.

With brothers who are likely to be traumatised/depressed in some way, she may also be aware of the sky high male suicide rate in this country.

It was discussed on here recently. What was it....84 men a week I think!

Just be there for her when she's let down by that philosophy, and realises she needs to be proactive on her own behalf.

I used to think like this until I was about 18. Feminism has come along way and it certainly felt to me and most of my peers I think that there was nothing you can’t do anymore just because you’re a woman.

The main thing that changed my mind was having a child. I realised how women are still expected to take care of the kids and housework but work as well.

I wouldn’t force it on her if she isn’t interested, I’d point out that feminism benefits men as well. For example, men won’t be as afraid to speak out against rape/dv or laughed off.

OP, I think there is a positive side to this. If she feels sorry for men it must mean that she feels positive about her own life (as a woman) and believes that she has a good future ahead of her. Which is great!

This was put very well and I do agree wholeheartedly.

Young women/teen girls these days seem to becoming less and less inclined to be feminist. I work in a school where we discussed feminism with a few classes and it seemed to us that as many girls as boys thought feminism had no place in our society now.
I was talking to my DD about feminism and she was saying how none of her friends would call themselves feminists because it's 'divisive' and she said 'what can a man do that I can't?'.
I wasn't sure what to say to that either, OP so I sympathise but I do definitely see a real shift in perception of feminism.

It's great that you can talk to her about serious topics, it's good to be relaxed about it so she continues the conversations. I would ask why she thinks the way she does, then say why don't we look at some facts and spend some time researching the topic together. Make sure she understands where to get correct information from, not opinions. I would also be interested to find out where she is getting all her ideas from so you can gently steer her away from that person.

Tbh, despite agreeing that we do have it harder in many ways, I do often find feminism divisive. Some of the threads/attitudes on here are pretty disgusting and it's even worse on social media.

I wouldn’t argue or try to convince her, just give her the published staritstics and evidence. It stands for itself (unfortunately) and is startling to read.

My dd is reading a brilliant book about msygony, it is fantastic, buy your dd the same book I will find the link.
My dd also 13 challenges me about everything all the time, good for them to have strong views and to voice them loudly and articulately. Your dd is testing the water, let her keep her views, hopefully she won’t have to revisit them due to a negative experience but will simply become more enlightened as she gets older.

I think it’s more about putting you in your place than actually believing what she’s saying. There are tiny aspects of what she is saying where truth can be found (so she feels she can hammer it home) but time, and growing up, will lead her to see things more clearly. Stop trying to make her believe. She’s using you to work out some of her teenage unreasonableness on and you’re falling for it.

Wait til she gets overlooked for a promotion in favour of a less capable man. She’ll understand it then!

I thought feminism was done until I got a 9lb baby stuck in my pelvis at the age of 23 and the male dr kept telling me how mistaken I was. Finally got a c section after 12 days overdue

That sounds more like a clinical error, Betty. When I was in hospital last the nurse tried to give me a second shot of blood thinners and wouldn't listen to my protests that I'd already had one until she read the notes. I didn't see it as a gender issue.

Betty, I really don’t think that was male privilege there.

My daughter is 16 and exactly the same. She is exceptionally intelligent and able to argue her point to the end. She has been influenced by some equally intelligent boys who have pointed out to her some of the inequalities men face.

I have been told I seem to hate men, that my background has skewed my thinking, that she believes I humanism not feminism, that she will never allow herself to be discriminated against and women who this has happened to were just weak. She believes that the law is there to protect her and that feminism has done the job it set out to do in this country and is no longer needed.

She also has lived in an abusive household where her father was emotionally abusive towards me and her. We now live apart from him and she refuses to see him. She has rejected him, but says that he doesn't represent all men. She certainly blames me for not acting on my feminist principles and not accepting his abuse. In many ways I think she saw feminism not doing it's job in my case because despite my understanding of it, I didn't change my circumstances early enough to protect her.

I also see this attitude as a positive thing though. it is selfish and self centered as it fails to accept that some women are not capable or able to fight against inequality, but it also means that she has a view of the world that is positive for her sex. I hope that remains because I know that I came to feminism because I experienced discrimination and inequality. if she never needs feminism for herself because she never experiences these things I can only see that as good.

I would however, love to see a little more empathy for women who face inequalities every day.

Thank you to the person who mentioned the issues with girls growing up in male abusive households and their struggles. I had never considered that this attitude is a backlash to what see perceived as weakness in me. it makes sense.

Please don’t tell me what I Experienced! It was 18 years ago but I remember it incredibly clearly and a midwife at the time confirmed his patronising attitude towards me.

It was 2000, I was doing it without a man and single mothers were enemy number 1 in the tabloids. My voice was ignored because I was a young, working class single woman.

I do think her attitude is admirable if still a bit misguided. The ideal situation is one where men and women have mutual respect and none of the current issues women face are present. I think many feminists have it almost hardwired into them to resent men (albeit probably from their poor experiences) and this unfortunately is unlikely to resolve even if the issues themselves are resolved. However, the new generation, untainted by the past, may be able to experience a better relationship with men as time moves forward.

Your perspective varies with life experience. She’s not going to believe something just because you tell her (a good thing), she has to see and experience it for herself.

And at her age, being a girl is actually pretty good. More likely to achieve academically, people who care if you don’t. If you are a working class boy, good luck to you. Nobody cares.

If she’s around a lot of boys from that particular class, she’ll pick up on it.

At that age, you have no idea how the workplace (and motherhood) changes things.

Experience is the greatest teacher, let her learn that for herself. She’ll probably come back years later and tell you you were right after all!

CocoFlannel9
I think many feminists have it almost hardwired into them to resent men (albeit probably from their poor experiences)

Can you see the one sidedness in this commnet?
Why are men 'almost hard wired' to be violent towards women, what can society do about that? Why don't we support women survivors of violence?
Surviving violence does not make you 'resentful' btw. It makes you 'wary' or 'cautious'.

she thought this was not fair as men sorted everything out for women to get help and we should do the same for them

We will ignore the fact that this is bullshit for a second.

Let's ask dd why "everything" needed sorting out for men in the first place? If someone runs an animal shelter, or a home for abused children, are the oppressed ones? Why did we need a male parliament to allow women to vote?

Why do we need domestic violence shelters for women and their children?

Why were women only recently allowed to have their name solely on a mortgage?

Why were women in allowed to be raped in marriage (in our, not her) life times?

Why are two women a week murdered by their partners, and not two men?

*needed sorting out for women in the first place.

I think this is just age, let her have her opnion I am sure in time she will learn. I was abit like this as a teen didn’t understand what all the fuss was about until I went to uni and volunteered at a rape crisis centre it was the most eye opening experience of my life and spending time with women who were passionate about feminism got me thinking. She’s a child she hasn’t experienced any inequality yet (or none that she is aware of) I am sure In time she will agree with your side of things I wouldn’t worry too much. I have a baby girl and I can’t wait for her to be old enough to have such discussions and hear her opinions

I think she's a teen and she knows what's important to you, so she's deliberately going against it. I'd say any 'educating' you do needs to be quite subtle. You can keep making your points in debates, but be careful to imply she's wrong and just suggest she looks things up eg. What support groups are there for men? What percentage of women's refugees were set up by men? I'd just try and get her to question her own thoughts I guess rather than reacting.

NOT to imply she's wrong

UpstartCrow.

I really don't want to derail this thread but I don't think the percentage of violent men is very high at all, even if they do commit the majority of violent crimes. I do think that sadly the proportion of feminists who good disdain for men is a higher proportion (although likely this is because victims of male violence are over represented amongst feminists vs the general population).

Best book perhaps, when the time feels right, could be Caitlin Moran's inspiring How to be a Woman. (There's also How to build a Girl but I've not read that) Maybe get a copy for each of you and discuss what comes up? If DD won't go for that or is still a bit young for the themes (it is explicitly written), just read it and refresh yourself on how bloody awkward, annoying etc being a teenager is ha ha...and why feminism is so necessary.