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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are there any 'famous' supporters apart from Alison Moyet and Graham Linehan

91 replies

TheBiologicalWoman · 13/07/2018 17:07

Alison Moyet and Graham Linehan are the only two I've seen standing up for women in the current 'debate' between women and TRAs.

So, for example regarding women's rights and abortion laws, we had Caitlin Moran, Grace Dent Sharon Horgan etc. Publicly speaking up.

Having not been tuned in to the beginning of this, I wonder if I have missed the presence of any other well known public figures speaking out against misogony, who may help draw attention to the issue.

I know there are several courageous academics who are in the public eye, but I wonder when/if those in the media will step forward.

We all know Stephen's Fry's viewpoint sadly. I disagree with his opinions wholeheartedly, but he has voiced them now and I wonder who else will air their views next.

I can see the

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Pratchet · 13/07/2018 19:22

Boy George but not openly

DJLippy · 13/07/2018 19:24

Twofingers Yes but I read a letter on here she's written to a constituent which was very carefully worded in such a way that made people think - she's not personally endorsing this guff. Ie The Green Party believes transwomen are women. Am I grasping at straws?

pachyderm · 13/07/2018 19:26

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said something mild like transwomen have a different experience to women and aren't the same. She got a fair bit of shit for it but would've got more if she was plain and old and uncool. Love the woman though, she's too clever to buy into the madness and not afraid to speak her mind.

Ian McEwan said people with penises are male...think he apologised, not sure Confused

DJLippy · 13/07/2018 19:28

Bonnie Greer follows a few GC accounts on Twitter. She follows lots of accounts so maybe that doesn't mean anything and she's busy with a Brexit crusade. She works in University management so probably doesn't want to rock the boat and I think she has a trans family member.....

SlightAggrandising · 13/07/2018 19:41

Paul Embery is a fairly big name I think in the London fire brigade. He's openly dismissive of the whole charade

Are there any 'famous' supporters apart from Alison Moyet and Graham Linehan
Pratchet · 13/07/2018 19:55

I dont know for sure about boy George but he has publicly scoffed at the idea that you have to identify as a girl to wear a skirt

Pratchet · 13/07/2018 19:57

This

Are there any 'famous' supporters apart from Alison Moyet and Graham Linehan
TheBiologicalWoman · 13/07/2018 19:58

I googled Lena Dunham as I wasn't sure which side she'd lean on.
I saw an article about calling out flight attendants for being transphobic, but possibly more about manners and the fact it involved children? Her response called for 'love and inclusivity'.
www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/lena-dunham-american-airlines-flight-attendants-transphobic-1026410

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Macareaux · 13/07/2018 19:59

Jenni Murray also thinks that Laurie Penney is one of the foremost younger generation of feminists. So not all good news.

I think Caroline Lucas has drunk the koolaid unfortunately.

I do think more famous people should speak out. We need to get to a tipping point and we are a long way away

So much has been invested. So many esteemed organisations have signed up to it. So many children have been set on a dangerous path. So much money is being made. All reasons not to turn this round.

pearlkent · 13/07/2018 20:02

What I have been most shocked about (well, one of many things) is that it turns out a lot of gay men are incredibly misogynistic. They used to be thought of as a "girl's best friend", in films and TV at least. Who knew they hated us so much (Stephen Fry)?
I'm hoping Boy George and Rupert Everett are on our side, as they were crushes of mine in my youth.

DJLippy · 13/07/2018 20:26

I think many gay men view this issue as I did as a bisexual woman. Transphobia = homophobia.

I did some research and then I thought..."hang on, this is MRA rhetoric...what about young gay kids? Fuck look at young gay kids - oh my gosh this shit is homophobic as fuck!"

I don't think it's always knee-jerk misogyny with gay men, just knee-jerk anti-homophobia

tobee · 13/07/2018 20:40

Ime gay men are misogynistic in about the same proportion as non gay men. Confused

tobee · 13/07/2018 20:40

And I don't think it's anything new.

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 20:49

This was Jenny Murray's article in the Times last year for which she was publically rebuked by the BBC:

(extracts)

"The first time I felt anger when a man claimed to have become a woman was in December 2000, when the Rev Peter Stone announced he had undergone the radical surgery to transition from male to female and was now called Carol. Her primary concerns, she told me, were finding the most suitable dress in which to meet her parishioners in her new persona and deciding if she should wear make-up or not.

Her transition had taken place a mere six years after the Church of England ordained the first 32 women priests, at a time when the idea of a female bishop was still regarded as impossible and when parishes were allowed to refuse a female vicar if there were objections.

I remember asking Carol what she owed those women who had struggled for so long to have their calling to the priesthood acted upon. His calling, as a man, had never been questioned. I had nothing but a blank look and more concerns about clothing. “I know it sounds silly,” she said. “But I’ve nothing to wear.”

Too right it sounded silly. I thought of all those women who had spent years and years challenging what being female had meant as they sat in the pews on a Sunday morning: 2,000 years of institutionalised patriarchy; no woman but a virgin mother and a handful of tortured saints to look up to; women only good for refreshing the flowers, raising the kids and making tea for the vicar."

It was news to Carol that life as a woman, especially a middle-aged woman, stepping into male territory in which she was unwelcome would be extremely tough. I prayed Carol would not find it so hard. Experience told me otherwise. It wasn’t going to be all about frocks and make-up. It was about sexual politics and feminism — ideas of which she seemed woefully unaware."

"The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly.

Your sex, male or female, is what you’re born with and determines whether you’ll provide the sperm or the eggs in the reproductive process. What de Beauvoir was analysing was gendered socialisation." (continues)

"Ah yes, the male brain. How often do we hear about the male or female brain and the oft-repeated mantra, applied to males and females alike, “I was born into the wrong body”. Research carried out by the distinguished scientists Cordelia Fine and Lise Eliot can find no evidence for such claims. They hold to the fact that all children are born with the potential to develop their own unique characteristics of behaviour, talent and personality, regardless of biological sex. They say that the idea that the brain and the body are split, meaning it is possible to have the brain of one sex and the body of the opposite, is very recent and is not supported by credible scientific evidence.

So what brings about the desire to switch gender? There are plenty of examples of boys dressing as girls and vice versa. I spent most of my childhood in dungarees because, even then, I could see boys had more freedom and I refused my mother’s exhortations to keep my knees together when I sat. The actor Rupert Everett told The Sunday Times Magazine last year how he dressed exclusively as a girl as a child. “Thank God the world of now wasn’t then because I’d be on hormones and I’d be a woman,” he said. “After 15 I never wanted to be a woman again. It’s nice to be able to express yourself, but the hormone thing, very young, is a big step.”

There’s a lot of fear, though. Numerous professionals in the field refused to talk to me, often quoting the experience of Kenneth Zucker, a Canadian psychologist who specialised in helping children and their families make their decisions about whether the child should transition or not. He was accused of employing the therapeutic tactics once used to persuade gay men that they were not homosexual. He has denied that this was the case. Nevertheless, he lost his job.

The British Medical Association now recommends that its employees do not refer to “expectant mothers”, but instead use the term “pregnant people” so as not to offend transgender people. Meanwhile the more radical trans activists want breast cancer and breastfeeding to be renamed “chest cancer” and “feeding”. Sorry, but I breastfed my kids and it was my breast that was cut off when I had cancer. No debate." (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

NotTerfNorCis · 13/07/2018 20:54

Brian Cox, the physicist.

LaMontser · 13/07/2018 20:56

I don’t think Caitlin Moran is GC. I saw her hawking her new book on tv recently and she was saying how the next one will talk about other aspects of feminism like older and trans women. I also recall something in an earlier book about all the gorgeous trans women and their great make up.

Sali Hughes I think is also not GC.

Hadley Freeman most definitely is. Also I think India Knight might be. And the Thick of It writer Ian Martin is def questioning if not full on GC.

TheBiologicalWoman · 13/07/2018 21:09

R0wantrees Thanks for sharing that superb article. I found myself nodding throughout.

My local paper this week has an article on Caitlin's new book/film and an interview skirting around feminism.
I'd like to ask her at one of her live performances/talks what she thinks? I'd never do it in reality, for fear she'd run rings around me, but I really want to know.

These women who've always given a shit, I need them now. To give a shit publicly. But I say this behind the anonymity of a keyboard.

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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 21:14

TheBiologicalWoman It was the interview with India Willoughby that made me first aware. I heard a male voice say that women's hairy legs were 'dirty' & on Women's Hour too! Had no idea who it was and actually re-listened on catch up as I wondered if I had being hearing things.

I read Jenni Murray's article and felt relief that she had commented and then bemusement when she was publically rebuked by the BBC.... Dame Jenni Murray! Shock

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 21:16

I also think that more public figures will speak up. It may take a little time but things are definitely moving. Woman's Hour have announced they are running a series about gender & sex in the autumn and they have asked for contributions for this.

Destinysdaughter · 13/07/2018 21:25

Caitlin Moran is no fucking feminist IMO, just a self publicist. I tried to read her book and it was so woolly headed I chucked it in the bin!

TheBiologicalWoman · 13/07/2018 21:33

My first introduction was Big Brother - say no more!

I remain optimistic. I've only been seriously following for five minutes and in that time alone I've seen Alison Moyet hounded and then back on Twitter, Stephen Fry show his true colours, the bravery of a group of women at Pride, Dr Kathleen Stock face defamation, Trans 'projection' (gotta be careful with my wording there as sure that's something else) all bringing this debate further into people's homes.

Surely we can't keep those front doors closed for much longer?

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Itscurtainsforyou · 13/07/2018 21:45

@Destinysdaughter - I'm really concerned about this twitter account you mentioned. Where are they getting the details? Can you post/pm me with the name? (Want to make sure I'm not on it Shock)

OlennasWimple · 13/07/2018 21:50

I reckon Richard Herring is GC (see his sterling work on International Women's Day), and surely Victoria Coren-Mitchell and David Mitchell are too. I'd be surprised if the more, um, frank comedians like Frankie Boyle believed it was possible to change sex.

anotherpersona · 13/07/2018 21:56

I wonder what Tanni Grey-Thompson thinks? She was Chair of the Commission on the Future of Women's Sport...but she is also Chancellor at a university.

NynaeveSedai · 13/07/2018 22:00

Lena Dunham has a 'trans sibling' she's not GC
Caroline Lucas is a koolaid drinker I'm afraid

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