#notalltranswomen

[BadasIwannaB]

An argument people often make when women voice their concerns about women only spaces:

‘Well hang on a second, I know quite a few trans women and they are just considerate nice people who just want to get on with their lives etc.’

Why can’t people see that this is spectacularly missing the point in just the same way as arguing ‘well NOT ALL MEN are [rapists/sexual harassers/misogynists/a danger to women]’?

I mean, I’m friends with a lot of men - they aren’t all bad. I’m even in an intimate relationship with one. But would that be a legit rebuttal to the arguments that women should have protected spaces without men? Clearly not! I’m not insulting my (or your) friends who are men, or implying men are all rapists etc. by agreeing that women should have protected spaces without men in them.

Similarly, then, why think that those who argue that these protected spaces should not be available to trans women must be assuming that all trans women are rapists/sexual harrassers etc., and must be saying something that’s terribly insulting to their (or your) friends who are trans women?

I also think the TWAW argument will not be won. Most aren’t idiots. Most people understand full well that males cannot become females but they want to include trans women under the woman umbrella anyway. Arguing about it is pretty pointless and will get nowhere in the long run. For many, it just looks like women being mean to an oppressed group.

Fighting for sex based protections shifts the debate. If TRAs want to object to it they have to come out and openly say ‘biological sex doesn’t matter’ and ‘women’s rights to privacy don’t matter’.

Hopes to ‘peaktrans’ the public have also taken a knocking with the Pride protests where so many just see it as women being mean.

I do understand the viewpoints of others on here but I just wonder where if anywhere you see it going. Do you e.g. realistically see the GRA being repealed and all references to gender identity being abolished?

Hi GardenGeek here is my quickly rattled off responses to your definitions.

“Sex and gender are different and distinct”

Bullshit, gaslighting retorts:

1. No sex and gender are the exact same thing.
2. No sex and gender are fuzzy and overlap
3. Sex doesn’t exist, only gender does
4. Sex and gender are a matter of perspective
5. Sex and gender are up to the individual to decide what they are.
6. I could go on…

“You have a right to both a sex and gender or delete as appropriate.”

Bullshit, gaslighting retorts:

1. Sex and gender are the same thing it is transphobic to say you can have 'both'.
2. Everyone has a sex and a gender, they aren't 'rights'.
3. Its insulting to say ‘delete as appropriate’ are you erasing my identity, say I don’t exist and should kill myself? You hate me bigot.
4. Sex is not a right, it is coercively assigned and used by T**Fs to oppress people
5. I could go on…

“Sex is either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions. "adults of both sexes"

Bullshit, gaslighting retorts:

1. Intersex people make up 50% (or other bullshit stat) of the population. Sex is a spectrum.
2. Clownfish can change sex.
3. There are lots of different genders, haven’t you heard of non-binary?
4. Men can have babies and women can be dads
5. ‘Dividing’ people is like making people drink from different water fountains because their skin is different colours. Bigot. In the future we’ll see no division between people.
6. I could go on…

”Gender is the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).”

Bullshit, gaslighting retorts:

1. Gender is your identity and nothing to do with society or culture.
2. Gender is the same as sex, but some people have the wrong bodies.
3. Gender is how you choose to express yourself, not a passive state of being.
4. Gender is your true and authentic self
5. There are an infinite number of genders and it is nothing to do with being male or female.
6. I could go on….

I do agree with @FloralBunting 'Yes, they'll say, sex and gender are different. We'll say that sex segregation is important. They'll say gender is higher up the chain, just as they do now. We'll be left scrabbling around for scraps.'

We need to define the terms not allow TRAs and hand maidens to define it all. Because I think, sadly, they do not give a shit for females. They are so fixed in their views it is terrifying.

I had a discussion about the lesbian protest and why lesbians might want to exclude some people from who they sleep with and it is just a total blanket feeling of you cannot exclude people. Fuck that!

Sorry @PurpleCrowbar that you had a tough time arguing with twats.

@bd67th '...a male-bodied person in that space will alarm me because I have prior experience of sexual assault by male-bodied people in changing rooms.'

I am so sorry

italiangreyhound thank you!

But I quite enjoyed the arguing with twats.

I'm still a bit bruised by an old friend, whose thread it was & with whom I normally have enjoyable online rucks, announcing with genuine horror that I had 'outed myself as a monster' & might have well said that black people aren't human, but other than that it was an interesting debate.

But it did bring home to me that however much I like the idea of adopting 'gender' as a quasi religious opt in & keeping 'sex' to mean 'sex' - everyone saying they've been where GardenGeek is are right.

It's not enough for TRAs & their handmaidens. It will never be enough.

I don't think I can bring myself to even argue against these points haha, they are insane! But thank you for taking the time. That is actually what they probably will say

The thing is, logic doesn't come into it, a sense of fairness doesn't come into it, a desire to reconcile doesn't come into it, the truth doesn't come into it. All normal methods of reasonable discourse go out of the window. Methods they are keen on are:

1. Outright lies.
2. Emotional blackmail.
3. Repetition of illogical statements equivalent to "la la la I'm not listening".
4. Mudslinging with labels.
5. Threats.
6. Narcisstic rage and going nuclear.
7. Calling for back up behind the scenes for others to join in with the above.
8. Disabling all forums where sensible discussion occurs.
9. Abusing technology, reporting systems, the law and financial backing to skew the narrative, erase and re-write history.
10. Wasting your time, energy and resources with the above and other trolling as a misdirection whilst getting away with changing laws and policies on the sly.

There is no reasoning with them.

The thing is, I have seen things really shift in terms of what people ideas go over heads and what ones are starting to get traction, even on mumsnet I have seen these changes:

The concept of women-only space as having value is being understood by more people.

The idea that women's shared reproductive biology is the reason for our oppression and that this shared biology and shared oppression is what we have in common is becoming more of a no-brainer.

Being 'in the wrong body' is flawed as a concept. Women have little in common with transsexuals [opposite sex] sInce we don't have shared biology or shared oppression. You can say this without a pile on.

Lesbians are suffering the most at the moment from transgenderism and what happens to Lesbian is important to all women. Straight women were more hesitant to comment on Lesbian issues before.

There are lots of changes happening.

What has changed them has not been attempts to reconcile with the crazies, but to work with the sane, interacting with the crazies only to expose the:

1. Outright lies.
2. Emotional blackmail.
3. Repetition of illogical statements equivalent to "la la la I'm not listening".
4. Mudslinging with labels.
5. Threats.
6. Narcisstic rage and going nuclear.
7. Calling for back up behind the scenes for others to join in with the above.
8. Disabling all forums where sensible discussion occurs.
9. Abusing technology, reporting systems, the law and financial backing to skew the narrative, erase and re-write history.
10. Wasting your time, energy and resources with the above and other trolling as a misdirection whilst getting away with changing laws and policies on the sly.

which attracts the attention of more sane people.

But what really has been working has been the slow, steady plugging away which has definitely shifted attitudes.

Obviously Mumsnet is very different from rl but we are a very politically engaged bunch. Irl I reckon I am in a tiny minority of people who have ever written to my MP. The Mumsnet demographic are exactly the right people to be doing this. We engage in political activism, we donate to crowdfunders and we keep plugging away.

Indeed. It is the crux of the matter although I would add that a removed dick does not mean rules no longer apply.

The question is simple and stark: do,girls and women have a right to say no to dick or not? [...] Yes or no. If yes in some circumstances and only to some dicks, how are to know which dicks we can say no to and who decides the circumstances in which we can say no?

Yes, exactly.

The question is simple and stark: do,girls and women have a right to say no to dick or not? [...] Yes or no. If yes in some circumstances and only to some dicks, how are to know which dicks we can say no to and who decides the circumstances in which we can say no?

Yes, I agree. Obviously though you need to frame it in much more palatable terms if it's going to have any impact with politicians or the public. Doubt it will go down well if you started talking about dick to a government committee.

The point is, gender identity and sex have hitherto been conflated but they refer to different things. We have to look at why we segregate and it is due to sex, not gender. Sports are the clearest example of that. So we have to ask ourselves why we are now suggesting that segregation should be on gender identity. Surely if we allow some male bodies into female spaces based on their feeling of gender identity, we should allow all male bodies in? If the answer is no, we shouldn't, we need to ask, what is the difference between a male body with male gender identity and a male body with female gender identity and why should the latter share with women but the former not? Which is essentially the dick question.