Misgendering - How do biological women handle it?

[SpareRibFem]

I've been misgendered quite often over my life. I'm interested in how other biological women handle it as I'm sure I'm not the only one this happens to (might be a very short thread if I am)

Note. This post is not intended to look at how TW handle it or how we think they should. I'm not deliberating excluding them but there's been plenty written by TW on misgendering and I'm interested in the biological woman's perspective as the problem is not unique to trans women or trans men.

For background I have quite strong facial features and shortish but feminine styled hair, I also have a very obviously female physique - Am I allowed to say that here?

I've been misgendered on occasion since I was a child, (like most children when I was growing up I wore gender neutral clothes) even happened when I was heavily pregnant

Sometimes it's been very deliberate to make the point they felt I was (unwelcome) in a male (work) environment and the intention was to exclude me.

Sometimes it's been rudeness, using gentlemen for example because predominantly men in the room and can't be bothered to adapt for women present

Sometimes it's accidental, service personnel calling me sir when they are addressing me directly.

Sometimes it's patriarchal for example official correspondence that starts Dear Sir because they assume they are addressing a man. Which annoys me.

I've never been entirely sure how to handle it. For service personnel I assume it's accidental and blink slightly as I've been female since birth and don't have a deep voice, Then I go with it and hope they don't get embarrassed when (if) they realise they've made a mistake.

In a group situation where they are referring to gentlemen I sometimes flag that there is also a lady present to make the point that they are being exclusive but sometimes it's just not worth it, I think this is the only time I correct people.

Letters I want to write something along the lines of 'women exist too' and return but life's too short.

To (possibly mis)quote an Alison Moyet song, 'It makes me feel like I'm invisible'. It isn't that I personally feel invisible but I feel like women are invisible

Great post Betty

One of the side effects of the instabrow culture of very heavy makeup with contouring and strobing and three layers of falsies is that, to my eye at least, women so heavily made up themselves are starting to resemble men in drag. You can tell they are female, and yet their makeup begins to take on the connotations of 'how men wear makeup'. What was once associated with only one sex simply takes on the mantle of the other one too.

The greater the artifice the further the distance from actual female it seems.

I didn't see your post when I was posting Betty very interesting

And of course you're right as to why women are more likely to (risk) assess what sex someone is and the cues we use to do so.

The sexual attraction aspect is probably why men sometimes accidentally misgender older women.

When i’m misgendered (frequent enough), it’s because people haven’t looked properly at my face, but they automatically code me as male because I’m 6’ and muscular.

I just laugh.

I’ve also been mis-transed if that’s a thing. In gay bars- as a drag queen or transvestite. That I minded a bit more because i think there was an intent to put me down. “How long have you been cross dressing?” isn’t a very friendly question - and wouldn’t have been if I were male, either!

Either way I survived unscathed.

For those who missed a page, the post other people are referring to isn’t my ‘pockets’ one, but one I made on page 2!

My drag success was in 2009 so first season of Drag Race era, a different world! I see from Instagram that ‘Bio Queens’ aren’t so unusual almost ten years on. Barrack the greater the artifice thing is interesting, and yes, I agree - the influence of theatrical drag make up filtering down to women’s everyday is something I will likely ponder on. I wonder how it might connect with male-fashion-designers creating clothing most suited to women who have less obvious secondary sex characteristics than average?

........

I think one of my main concerns re: transactivism as we witness it right now as it is asking women to purposefully ignore one of our ingrained risk assessment traits.
It’s asking us not to talk about these skills, and not to pass them onto our daughters. That’s massively problematic, not because Transwomen collectively are some awful threat, but because if the skills are encouraged to atrophy out of politeness, we are less safe from predators overall.

I don’t personally think there is any conflict at all between the on-first-glance-opposing positions of

1. some transpeople assert that they pass as their acquired gender all-day every-day.
2. some women assert that women can always tell.

Because most transpeople aren’t putting themselves into positions where women are made to feel particularly vulnerable, so women are happily only reading the top level cues, and that means that yes, transpeople are passing in the shopping mall and the library etc.

However, if they encounter a woman who has learned to pay very close attention to their internal instincts (due to abuse related PTSD, for instance) or if they are the only other person standing at a ladies toilet mirror, on the far end of an almost deserted station platform at midnight, they won’t pass in the same way, because the women will be risk assessing using a completely different set of cues.

SpareRibFem hadn’t thought of the age thing, now you bring it up though I bet you are correct!

I hadn't thought of it before Betty I just made the connection as I read what you said

When I have been misgendered it's always in the brief interactions as described by Betty - shop assistants in a queue might glance over and say "be with you in a minute, mate," and you see a double-take or moment of obvious embarrassment when you turn out to be a love/miss/pet/ducky/whatever rather than a 'mate'. At 5ft 8" with a 'masculine' hair cut they're just reading the briefest and most obvious cues, it has never happened yet in any situation where I'm moving or speaking, even when also wearing 'masculine' clothing.

I have never been misgendered.

I was a young Mam and have been a SAHP for years.

I do have a Nigella Lawson hour glass body shape.

I don't do make-up and mostly wear jeans.

If I was misgendered I would look at the person in a confused way and then get on with my life.

I've been mistaken for a man online but never irl. Honestly given that the mistakers usually were shocked I was a girl because I was assertively stating my views I was fairly proud I had confused them and felt good about confounding their expectations.

@LoonvanBoon

This hasn't happened to me yet but I'm concerned that it's going to as I'm losing my hair in what appears to be a male pattern way, with recession from the front. It's pretty unusual for a woman although since this started happening I've noticed a couple of women with this kind of hair loss

It's quite common, and related to stress I think.

@BarkingDogsAloneAtHomeSucks

I do have a Nigella Lawson hour glass body shape.

Ah now you're just bragging 😂

When I was in college a teacher told me I was lucky because with my face I could play male or female. I think he meant it as a compliment that I was androgynous. I was hurt at the time but I was an insecure teenager so I was allowed! I was also slightly confused as even then I had enormous boobs.

I've been mistake for a man numerous times online. Very rarely care - in most cases it's irrelevant. When I was little (in real life) I did care when my name was shortened to make a boy's name. I can't remember if that was because I thought people were thinking I was a boy or if I just felt they weren't seeing ME, complete with long hair etc. I think it was more the latter but too long ago to be sure.

I can't remember the last time it happened but I suppose I present quite femininly now as although I'm always in jeans tops are usually pretty, I have long hair and even if I'm in baggy clothes you can see me boobs shape quite easily. I think I wouldn't be bothered but you can never be sure until you are in that situation.

Never been misgendered in real life and never likely to be as too obviously feminine looking.

But curiously have been misgendered several times online, because I have a tendency to argue stridently - even on MN, this has led other posters to claim that I must therefore be male!

The idea that I can't possibly be a woman because I can argue my point coherently and forcefully REALLY FUCKS ME OFF.

It's like people think there must be a 'feminine personality' and that if I'm not endlessly submissive and wet, I must be male! So bloody annoying. I've even had this in discussions online where I've discussed giving birth! It's just insane.

I've been misgendered many times. In RL generally from behind, because I'm tall and broad and generally wear fairly gender-neutral styles. In correspondence, because I have a non-European name. In group situations when women are significantly in the minority.

When the misgenderer realises their mistake, they are generally more bothered than I am. I have no desire to humiliate or upset someone over a genuine mistake. I don't mind that they made a mistake.

However, when the assumption is that I must be a man because of my manner of communication or my position, then I ensure that the misgenderer knows my sex. I may be mildly annoyed, but I don't come to any harm from it, nor doI seek vengeance or reparation.

Similarly, when I have been in a group situation as one of a few women among many men, I will stand up for my right to be recognised and acknowledged. But that doesn't mean getting upset because someone said "Guys!". It means ensuring that the group stops by the ladies' as well as by the gents', it means also being introduced by name and not omitted or just "and these are the girls".

The two times that stick out are when I was a teen, by being asked if I was cross dressing in a nightclub. I was wearing trousers.I took it as them saying I wasn’t attractive and it did upset me a little, but I was 16 or so, and grew out of it.
The last time I remember was when I was at work, where I had to wear a polo shirt. It was a delivery man just not looking. His face when he actually looked at me was priceless, but he didn’t apologise. I had waist length dark green hair, h cup boobs and was seven months pregnant. I laughed then, and laugh now.
The difference was intention - 16 year old me was being told I was unattractive, pregnant me was just being treated as man-as-default.
I suppose that’s the thing, isn’t it?

@SteveZizzouDuggee

Sorry but omg, your name has me in stitches. Just imagining the Life Aquatic with Duggee.

Finding the different experiences and thought here very interesting.

Gazebo I agree re group position, these days I do tend to make sure it's obvious I'm in the room for work by sitting where no one can miss me (no sitting by the wall) and by ensuring I speak up early in a meeting. That's come with a confidence in what I have to offer that I didn't have when I was younger. If I do need to remind them to add lady or ladies I do it clearly as a correction rather than suggest I'm upset by it (as I'm not upset just want to make it clear I'm very much there)

I'll admit to being a bit bewildered why I get misgendered so often outside of work environment. My body shape is very female and without wanting to put identifying physical details it would be impossible for anyone to mistake me for a TW. I don't find it upsetting just weird.

Last time it happened was 2 weeks ago, it was a woman and I checked after with my oh I hadn't misheard.

Ha! I've been called "Sir" at school.

But then again, I've been called Mum and (latterly) Nan as well told me it was time to retire

The first time I was misgendered, a barmaid grabbed me by the scruff of the neck to throw me out guide me towards the door, then said, "Sorry, pet, I thought you were a lad." Once she realised I was female, she let go. Now that's literal violence for you.

I have short hair and often wear trousers, especially at school, but I don't have a deep voice, and I don't think I have a prominent moustache. I am used to small children asking if I am a girl or a boy, which is fair enough because many of them come from cultures where women don't have short hair or wear trousers. Also, most of the other female staff are young, and tend to have long hair.

I have been addressed as a man in shops and don't think I hide my irritation very well in this instance.

I've been mistaken for a man online

Thank you for reminding me. The only time I have been misgendered is by posters on here.

I've been told several times that I am a man. I've been told I have so much to learn about being a woman- which I assume was intended to mean I am a trans woman.

But in real life? Never.

I just get on with my day. Don’t even bat an eyelid.

I’m tall, have short hair, and am not blessed of nork, although I do have good hips and a moderately gracile face. I’ve been called “sir” a few times. It makes precisely zero difference to my day.

To me, it's not a great feeling, but it wouldn't make me suicidal, because that level of depression and hopelessness has more behind it than what some rando thinks. I don't know if it's similar but what has happened much more often to me is people think I'm pregnant when I'm actually fat.

I do have experience of severe to moderate depression and suicidal thoughts so I have some understanding. When I'm in that place, it's about my feeling of worthlessness. My perception FWIW of what's happening with some groups these days, is that the notion of 'identity' has become much more important than it was when I was growing up. It's not just about what I am any more, and embracing it, it's about everyone else validating it or it's not real. And there is no resilience or ability to disregard what others say.

Yes, Duggee has his submarine badge and his little red hat and blue boiler suit amuses me no end. It ties in the amusement stakes with the panda channeling Marlon Brando in another episode.

Oh yeah I showed my parents the Apocalypse Now episode the other day... must watch submarine badge more closely.

I'm misgendered all the time on the phone - I have a voice tempered by years of smoking and whiskey, so it's understandable. Doesn't bother me at all. I used to DJ online and the nature of the music I played (industrial, power metal) plus the voice probably led a lot of people to think I was male. I've got a gender non-specific name, too. Only happened in real life once, after a disastrous haircut, and when I was backlit on the stairs, my then boyfriend's landlady asked if I was his brother :) Ah, happy days!

no one has used the wrong pronoun as I look like a girl, speak like a girl and wear feminine clothes.

but I have been told that im not a real girl/like a girl quite a lot due to my hobbies, work choices.