Misgendering - How do biological women handle it?

[SpareRibFem]

I've been misgendered quite often over my life. I'm interested in how other biological women handle it as I'm sure I'm not the only one this happens to (might be a very short thread if I am)

Note. This post is not intended to look at how TW handle it or how we think they should. I'm not deliberating excluding them but there's been plenty written by TW on misgendering and I'm interested in the biological woman's perspective as the problem is not unique to trans women or trans men.

For background I have quite strong facial features and shortish but feminine styled hair, I also have a very obviously female physique - Am I allowed to say that here?

I've been misgendered on occasion since I was a child, (like most children when I was growing up I wore gender neutral clothes) even happened when I was heavily pregnant

Sometimes it's been very deliberate to make the point they felt I was (unwelcome) in a male (work) environment and the intention was to exclude me.

Sometimes it's been rudeness, using gentlemen for example because predominantly men in the room and can't be bothered to adapt for women present

Sometimes it's accidental, service personnel calling me sir when they are addressing me directly.

Sometimes it's patriarchal for example official correspondence that starts Dear Sir because they assume they are addressing a man. Which annoys me.

I've never been entirely sure how to handle it. For service personnel I assume it's accidental and blink slightly as I've been female since birth and don't have a deep voice, Then I go with it and hope they don't get embarrassed when (if) they realise they've made a mistake.

In a group situation where they are referring to gentlemen I sometimes flag that there is also a lady present to make the point that they are being exclusive but sometimes it's just not worth it, I think this is the only time I correct people.

Letters I want to write something along the lines of 'women exist too' and return but life's too short.

To (possibly mis)quote an Alison Moyet song, 'It makes me feel like I'm invisible'. It isn't that I personally feel invisible but I feel like women are invisible

Men’s clothes = clothes purchased from the men’s section, sold in men’s sizes.

I suppose they aren’t men’s once they belong to me, but most of them are offcasts from my 18 year old son or my husband.

You can call them ‘gender neutral’ if you like, it it’s not a term I personally like to use. I prefer ‘unisex’ but in this particular example I literally meant what I said. Clothes made for men, marketed at men, previously belonging to men.

I can't wear clothes cut for male bodies as I need adequate space for my arse and boobs but for casual wear I wear usually what I regard as gender neutral jeans and teeshirts but cut to fit a woman's shape.

There's a whole other discussion possible on what we regard as gender neutral clothes and why

And waists, It may be harder to find my waist these days but I still need a waistband on my jeans that is smaller than my arse so they don't fall down.

Could we have a link please, Lass?

This happened lots when I was young. I was a short-haired child dressed in hand-me downs from my male cousins, I spent most of my childhood being described as a boy. The only time this upset me was when Father Christmas got it wrong when I visited him at a school event - I think because I thought he should really know better, being FC and everything.

Doesn't happen now, I think as I have long hair. I do wear "mens" clothes quite a lot as many "ladies" clothes don't fit me.

Happened to my husband when he was a young chap with long hair - he was told he was going in the wrong toilets, and chatted up by some dodgy drunk bloke in the pub who thought we were two women out together and clearly in need of his company.

Happened a lot before I had my kids. I would feel a bit insulted when I was a teenager and desperate to be found pretty, but would laugh it off.
Post kids with large boobs, rarely happens. Do hate it when doing things like looking for a new car and the salesman will only talk to DH whilst looking at my boobs. Plenty salesmen lost a sale from me that way.
And letters sent to me as a sir annoys me, not that I get get called sir or mister but the assumption that it is always the men handling all the administration stuff. Really gets on my nerves.

I raised this point in a trans thread and was told "that's a different thing".
I can't recall having being misgendered, despite having very short hair on and off (it's currently shorter than DH's shaggy mop).
When I met DH though, he had long hair and was misgendered a lot, by men, women and children, despite being over 6ft.
With children it's different because pre-puberty, their facial features are pretty similar. DS had longer hair and he was getting misgendered several times every day, and obviously girls with shorter hair are boys .
In summary, DH and DS have been literally killed, myself and DD are lucky enough not to have been

This came up on a trans thread I was posting on too, and I got roundly told it never happens because people can tell the difference between the sexes, like, all the time. And when I said I'd been mistaken for a boy as a teenager, and even went out specifically as a boy at uni and was convincingly taken for one, I was told I was making it up because it never happens

To be fair I was pretty shaken when it happened to me as a teenager and it really knocked my confidence for a while.

yes when I was a child...

I cant say as how it kept me awake at night.

When I had short hair and dressed androgynously in the 80s and 90s, I was never misgendered. Was I criticised, judged, mocked, and shamed? Sometimes. Did I receive misogynistic, homophobic abuse? Yes, sometimes, including some notable, life-changing instances. But everyone knew I was female.

(By the way, when I just wrote misgendered up there, it was autocorrected to 'cisgendered.' I've fixed it, but it's still underlined in red as a misspelling. Fuck off!)

But for the last 2 - 3 years, with short hair again after an interlude of nearly 2 decades, I've been misgendered a lot. Thanks for starting this thread, I've wanted to discuss this phenomenon.

The basic structure of my face hasn't changed (despite my decrepitude). My friends say it is feminine (I've asked). I'm not 'pretty' but I'm considered fairly attractive. I still wear the same type of clothing (the fashion world would call it 'gentlewoman' or 'menswear-inspired'). My body is small and clearly female. I have medium-sized tits, no Adam's apple, and while I'm not an hourglass type, my figure is curvy enough to read XX immediately from all angles.

I have discovered that unless I'm wearing accessories and makeup - things traditionally associated with femininity - I am now being confused with a trans man with significant frequency. The shape of my haircut has a lot to do with it. It can't be too traditionally masculine (square shaped) or the misgendering is more likely to happen. People, in an attempt to be polite, are calling me "Mr" or "Sir" in situations where such titles are used. Receptionists, shop clerks etc. Usually it makes me (and my children) laugh heartily. But sometimes I find it upsetting - for example when I was in hospital, without any accoutrements of socially constructed gender. Because obviously, anyone who chooses the NHS pyjamas over the NHS nightie (garment of horror), has short hair and a bare face, and is regularly visited by a woman must be a trans man. Despite female listed as sex on the records, despite female name. I had already realised most of the staff assumed I was a lesbian (I'm actually married to a man, but he wasn't around much). That didn't bother or surprise me. People often assume I'm a lesbian, always have, and in fact I'm bisexual. But then I discovered that at least one nurse thought I was a trans man. That was both funny and gutting and I'm still both amused and upset when I think about it, personally and socio-politically. I know they knew I'm female. But because (I'm guessing) of widespread acceptance of self-ID (as a concept, not a legal construct), they didn't want to upset me by assuming I "identified" as a woman. They thought they were doing the right thing. But they had never asked - and to be honest, in my fragile state it just made me feel horrible, unfeminine, ugly and worried about living in a society where moderately gender non-conforming women like me are now assumed to be identifying and presenting as men. I always wanted to expand what it looks like and is like to be female. But it seems as if the opposite is happening. At least to me and my children.

They are several years apart and have haircuts that some consider to be gender non-conforming. When the oldest was little, people mis-sexed them often. No big deal. Now the youngest, with the same haircut, has been assumed to be a trans child on 2 occasions.

On one of these, I was praised for letting them be their true self. The commenter was embarrassed when I clarified things. On the other, the commenter made her gender-critical position clear (which was a bit rude, in a public place, even though I agree).

To be fair I was pretty shaken when it happened to me as a teenager and it really knocked my confidence for a while.

even went out specifically as a boy at uni and was convincingly taken for one

Does. Not. Compute.

You must have been a very delicate teenager to have had your confidence knocked by that. I was frequently mistaken for a boy when I was a teenager because I'd cut my own hair very short with a razor, and wore leather. I found it amusing.

Some teenagers are delicate, Juells, isn't that the whole point of delaying any physical trans treatment until adulthood?

I tend to just laugh at it. Mind I used to get irrationally angry when people seemed to assume my daughter was male if not in pink and frills. Seemed male was the default.

You must have been a very delicate teenager to have had your confidence knocked by that.

Um, I don't know, I don't think I was. But I was awkward and out of place, and felt scrutinised and judged. I was worried how frequently people might be thinking I was a boy and my not know about it, like that everyone would be looking at me when I went into loos and stuff, thinking I didn't belong there. I think those are fairly common teenaged frailties, aren't they?

The stuff at uni was years later; I lived with a bunch of boys and for a laugh me and the other girl in our house would dress up in their clothes, wear sports bras and beanies, give ourselves 6 o'clock shadows and all hit the town. I was fairly confident in myself by that point; it was a good number of years after the first incident. I was asked if I was gay (i.e. a gay man) quite frequently; couldn't help giving boys the eye I guess.

Yes ive had all of your examples

Ive been called sir in restaurants and one particularly memorable time was called a man...by my dad!!

And when i was walking into loo someone told me i couldn't go in as it was the ladies

I am taller than average, my clothes although from the ladies department aren't usually feminine and i have very very short hair...love my makeup and have a very matronly figure

Once they hear me or see my face they apologise

I don't usually do anything as i dont care...but i was incensed the other day when looking for a bill for my DBS, the first few i found had used my husbands initial...so fucking useless

I'll try again since my first comment is seemingly verboten. I have been misgendered several times in my lifetime. It happens even more now I shave my head. I couldn't care less.

using gentlemen for example because predominantly men in the room and can't be bothered to adapt for women present

That was so standard I found it more jarring to have my Christian name occasionally tacked on - as I was only woman in the room.

I was misgendered in public once - waiting for a train - I got vague impression is was supposed to be some kind of comment on my desirability - I have wide hips, large breasts and shoulder length hair - can't remember what I was wearing. I ignored it and moved away from the men. I wasn't upset as such just wary about their behavior.

One of my young children did it to a neighbour – she’d been ill for a while cut her hair and put on a lot weight and TBH unless close up it was hard to tell especially when she was dressed in jeans and oversized t-shirt – it clearly upset up her and I corrected my child and apologised and she waved it off. I felt terrible she’d been upset but she was polite and understanding.

And when I said I'd been mistaken for a boy as a teenager, and even went out specifically as a boy at uni and was convincingly taken for one, I was told I was making it up because it never happens

There is a difference between just walking around, registering someone's sex on a subconscious level we are barely aware of and which doesn't matter to being face to face with someone in a space intended to be for only one sex. Where you are potentially vulnerable, I think women are by and large, apt to make instinctive evaluations about someone's sex, for good reason.
As a teacher, I was routinely called 'sir'. I never bothered to correct. I believe there are older people who go around deliberately misgendering babies in prams, despite whatever gender-confirming outfit they are wearing and I fully intend to do this also on retirement. My daughter was frequently called 'the lad' and 'he' when she had short hair. Once this happened at the local dump and she thought it was ironic because the man who said it had a very long ponytail.

deydodo oh! I’d forgotten about boy-children!

My son had long hair for years and years and was always being told what a pretty girl he was! I see it still happens to long haired boy children now, through my friends’ social media anecdotes.

My son no longer has long hair, although I suppose it’s still long-for-a-boy by many people’s standards (think 90s ‘curtains’) but he mostly wears a baseball cap over it anyway.

Nontheless, he is STILL sometimes mistaken for being a girl, despite being 18, 6ft 1 and so skinny it’s clear he has no female secondary sex characteristics. We usually put this down to him still being blonde (not many blonde males around by the post-puberty years) but he literally gives no shits about it anyway, probably because he has been raised not to consider being mistaken for a woman as an insult.

That said, I can see why it’s upsetting for some people to feel misgendered, especially when exploring their sense of self as a teenager etc, but it’s no big deal in our particular household thus far.

You must have been a very delicate teenager to have had your confidence knocked by that.

Nah, teenagers get their confidence knocked by many things. Even adults do sometimes, I don't find that particularly unbelievable. I remember as a teen someone pointed out how my arse was bigger than my mates, and the comment stuck with me for ages, to the point where I starved myself for a while. Yet my arse still did not shrink. As an adult I have realised that no matter how much weight I lose, the tits and arse remain. lovely.

This hasn't happened to me yet but I'm concerned that it's going to as I'm losing my hair in what appears to be a male pattern way, with recession from the front. It's pretty unusual for a woman although since this started happening I've noticed a couple of women with this kind of hair loss; and have found myself looking twice to see if they actually are women.

I already had quite a high forehead and have seen a couple of photos of me recently, where the wind has blown my hair back and exposed my hairline, and I honestly could be mistaken for a transwoman.

I think that's more likely than that I'd be mistaken for a non-trans man as I do generally wear 'female' clothes, jewellery, accessories etc. If I wore 'male' clothing I think I'd look like one of the Hairy Bikers, only smaller and without a beard.

It's actually really shocked me how my hairline receding by a cm or two (so far) has made such a major difference to my appearance. I look unfamiliar to myself and my face does look a lot more masculine.

I'm finding it all upsetting but I guess it's the hair loss and the 'not looking like myself' that bothers me more than the possibility of being mistaken for a man.

It's particularly upsetting as I'm also dealing with loads of health shit, specific autoimmune conditions that overwhelmingly affect women and not men. So I can't help thinking that if I'm going to lose my hair, it could at least be in a fucking 'female pattern' too.

Anyway - hair issues are not the main point of this thread, I know. But I would / will find it very upsetting to be 'misgendered' - and will probably 'wear hair' partly to avoid that happening. If I was misgendered purely because of the way I presented, in terms of clothing etc, but I felt secure about my appearance, I don't think it would bother me too much.

lass it would be nice to find some common ground with you. But to do that there has to be a desire to understand another's intent.

If I say "I wear 'men's clothes' " I'm trying to convey "I wear clothes which I acknowledge are targeted towards men, but my choice as a female to wear them indicates that I refute the position that they belong in some proprietorial way to men"

In other words, I'm saying society claims these garments as men's territory but I refute that claim.

When you say "I don't wear men's clothes" I'm inferring that you support the claim that certain garments should remain firmly in male territory. Not for women.

Am I wrong?

Are you trying to convey that you also reject the idea that certain clothes ought to belong to each sex (but reject them yourself for personal reasons)?

I can't work out whether you want gendered dress codes reinforced or not.

I tried to dress my son in his older sister's grey school trousers. Completely generic straight leg cut uniform trousers with front crease.

He cut the grey belt loop buttons off. Turns out some girls had noticed the 1cm grey plastic buttons were not perfectly round, but were slightly flower shaped. They teased him.

There's nothing in 2018 that makes generic trousers the territory of either sex. They really are, as a concept, a unisex garment. Just trousers, for either sex.

But the mucking about with design details is how the unnecessary gendered message gets conveyed.

That's how an otherwise boring grey school uniform unisex garment gets gender-branded 'not for you, pal'. Stupid 1cm flower shaped grey buttons that mark it out as 'for girls only'.

It doesn't need to be that way.

Oh, weird anecdote. I once came third in a drag queen beauty contest, pretending to be male, a male dressed as caricature of a woman.

It was dark and people were drinking so I’m sure that helped, and I had to avoid speaking because I knew my voice would give me away. I also had to consciously try and take up more space (think ‘manspreading’ in a frock).

Afterwards I was questioned by two intrepid club goers as to my actual bio sex, and I of course told the truth. They thought it was funny and also that it was a shame because I would’ve ‘been a heckofacute gay boy’.

I think human beings read different ‘tells’ depending on the situation and their motivation. If you are in a happy, populated place you will just read the top level social cues, hair style, dress etc, and move on. This is why short haired women get misgendered by shop assistants etc. It’s a brief interaction in a busy environment, no need to assess beyond the very superficial.

If you are in a more vulnerable situation, you will look further, perhaps at body structure or gait, if you are downright terrified you will analyse everything, right down to impact of footsteps and body smell.

Sexual attraction is another motivator for reading beyond the top level cues, especially in an environment where gender is less conformed to than average.
Transwomen in a lesbian environment often stand out, for example because the social cues they’ve adopted to pass in everyday society are the same social cues that many lesbians have consciously rejected.

Women are generally better at reading bio sex than men, I suspect, because in general, our physiology makes us more vulnerable to violence.

I asked DH about this, he said that in his experience (now decades out of date) as a doorman, bike gang member and martial arts specialist, men are also constantly aware of the threat of violence, but they are used to a start point of mentally sorting which males are the biggest threat, including figuring your own place in the pecking order.

Women are more likely to start from ‘who here is male?’ because no matter how strong or big an individual woman is, our mammalian instincts read all males as threats.

When it's accidental misgendering of me it's because they haven't actually looked at me, just seen a person and defaulted to male. I guess it means we may all be doing that irl sometimes without realising as mostly people are too polite or awkward to raise it or don't care.

Barrack I buy sweatpants from the men's section because they have pockets and the women’s ones don’t!

—————-

I think this is stupid, women need pockets (especially now we all have smartphones) but it’s cheaper to make clothes without pockets so manufacturers will continue to do this unless women revolt en mass. As there are much bigger issues to campaign on at present, I simply buy men’s sweatpants. For now.

I absolutely love a frock, mind you, and have lots of ‘girly’ clothes (just rarely wear them at present). Most are vintage or second hand. On the rare occasion I buy new dresses or skirts, I only buy the ones with pockets.

I used to love Eddie Izzard’s ‘total clothing rights for men’ stance - I think it applies both ways, me wearing men-marketed clothes isn’t a virtuous act, they are simply more practical for me, because I BLOODY LOVE POCKETS.