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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thank you, Feminism Chat

48 replies

MagicMix · 09/07/2018 12:43

I don't really post on here very much as I often don't feel like I have anything much to add, but I just wanted to thank you all for reassuring me that I am neither crazy nor a hate-filled bigot.

There is not really anybody I feel safe to discuss gender and sex with in real life, unless on those subjects where my views and the prevailing orthodoxy align. I do have one good friend that favours legalisation of prostitution (I favour the Nordic model) and we've had respectful discussions about that and maintained our friendship without any problems. But the big issue, I think you all know what I'm talking about, I just don't dare to ever bring up or respond to. I don't say things I don't believe, but I do just stay silent.

I used to be fully right-on as well, but really I just hadn't thought about it very much. I just went along with the orthodoxy and now I see the danger of that. I always had niggling doubts. 'If gender is a social construct and we are fighting against that, why can't a woman like and do masculine things without being a man, why can't a man like and do feminine things without being a woman?' I would ask myself. I somehow convinced myself that it was different, but never quite managed to nail down how exactly. I guess I just rejected all critical thought, to be brutally honest about it.

The thing that 'peak transed' me was when a man in our social group came out and said that he was a woman. I just could not make myself believe it, though at first I did try. He just isn't a woman in any way whatsoever. I have sympathy for him and I believe in his case it is trauma from a horrific sexual assault and rape that his mother experienced that is most likely behind his rejection of being a man. But that doesn't make him a man. And then there was a photo (he is involved in local politics) of him with a group of others involved in some council or something, and there were something like 6 men and 1 woman. A woman commented sarcastically about the gender ratio and was rebuked because one of the men was in fact a woman. He was dressed like a man, typically male haircut, male body (obviously), this was before he had even done anything except declare his womanhood and the woman apologised for making the comment! I couldn't believe it. And then I felt angry, because he had exactly the same male privilege as every other man in the photo. There was no basis for claiming a (very slightly) fairer gender ratio based on his involvement. I saw suddenly very clearly how this ideology could be damaging for women.

I have a good friend who is a very liberal right-on kind of feminist and she's just put a post on FB about 'no terfs' and 'no boundaries'. I will never raise this with her. I don't think it would end our friendship but it would change the way she thought of me. I have numerous other acquaintances who would all vilify me if they knew what I thought.

Anyway, sorry for waffling on, but my point is that spaces like this on the internet are so important. Please please keep doing what you do, because people like me are listening, and no doubt others who have their doubts but don't want to be a bigot. Thank you, women of Mumsnet Feminism Chat!

OP posts:
MagicMix · 09/07/2018 12:43

But that doesn't make him a woman is of course what I meant to say there..

OP posts:
Cooroo · 09/07/2018 12:45

Just jumping in to say I feel just the same! This place scares me but keeps me sane, and meeting a few women who also hang out here was incredible.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 09/07/2018 12:50

No boundaries? What do you think she means by this? That women can't set boundaries?

Pratchet · 09/07/2018 12:56

Hi. Thank you for saying this. If you can, raise it. Now is the time. After this summer it will be too late. It will be illegal to raise it. Please, talk about it.

MagicMix · 09/07/2018 12:58

I don't know what she meant and I will not ask her. I suppose a charitable interpretation is that there should not be parts of society that are inaccessible for LGBT people, in a broad sense like not being discriminated against in hiring processes etc. But I agree that paired with the t*rf comment it does not look good since the protesters she is clearly referencing were talking about lesbians' sexual boundaries.

OP posts:
MagicMix · 09/07/2018 13:06

I'm going to stay with her some time next year and she is a very dear friend to me and an extremely kind and big-hearted woman. So I won't risk a falling out with her. I also do not think she is a bad person; I just suspect that she is very caught up with being 'woke' and equates questioning trans ideology with homophobia and lack of humanity. I think it's a critical thinking failure (or her critical thinking that has led her to very different conclusions than I reached), no malice.

OP posts:
HamsterToast · 09/07/2018 13:19

I feel totally the same. Feel free to chat to me about stuff!

RabbitsAreTasty · 09/07/2018 13:23

I'd tackle that one indirectly so that one day you can talk about it as friends.

Post some things about, say, support for Women's Aid, action against homophobia, oppression of women and girls in the third world.

Thinking about these issues helps people in their first world woke bubble to remember that women and girls are oppressed because of biology and external society not their internal gender identity.

MagicMix · 09/07/2018 13:40

Thinking about these issues helps people in their first world woke bubble to remember that women and girls are oppressed because of biology and external society not their internal gender identity.

The thing is, I think the way they think (and I used to think) is simply so compartmentalised that they wouldn't make the link. They would readily agree that sex-based oppression is awful and does happen. They would say (they do say!) that gender is a social construct. But it doesn't stop them from signing up to an ideology that relies on the idea of an innate 'gender soul' or whatever to make any sense whatsoever. If they get to the point of thinking 'Hang on a minute...' they just come at it from a different angle or suppress it until things 'make sense' again. It honestly reminds me a great deal of a religion and snapping out of it myself reminded me of rejecting Christianity as a child.

The closest I have got to 'outing myself' (apart from to my DP, he knows what I think) was when another friend posted something about fucking brain scans of 'trans children' showing they had brains matching their preferred gender. I said that I found the idea of female brains vs male brains regressive and highly offensive and this led to a discussion in which I said that I saw gender as an oppressive system of stereotypes, not an innate quality of human beings, and that I in no way identified with the feminine gender. So I skirted around the issue. Nobody twigged that I don't believe that trans people are literally the opposite sex, though. In most of my circles I think such a thing is so unthinkable that you would have to be pretty explicit about it for someone to suspect you of such heresy. Someone even said 'I think I see what she's trying to say' and then made out I was making a point about gatekeeping...

OP posts:
MagicMix · 09/07/2018 13:42

Masculine brains vs feminine brains, that should be. Of course a brain in a male person is a male brain, so to speak.

OP posts:
MagicMix · 09/07/2018 13:54

I feel totally the same. Feel free to chat to me about stuff!

Thank you. Do you have anyone who is trans in your social circle and how do you handle it? The man that I know is generally a nice man and respectful of women. I do know that he considers himself to be literally a woman and I disagree with him on that, obviously, but I would never see him being one of those overtly aggressive and rude transwomen. I do not know if he feels himself to be entitled to enter female sex-segregated spaces and for that reason I would never agree to a group trip to, e.g., the swimming pool. But generally it's been quite easy to avoid the issue so far as there is actually little call to refer to someone's sex directly when you're talking to them if you don't want to. There is still a part of me, though, that resents him calling himself a woman because it feels like appropriation.

OP posts:
53rdWay · 09/07/2018 13:59

I found the idea of female brains vs male brains regressive and highly offensive

The fact that this is even a controversial thing to say now is remarkable, isn’t it?

SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 14:15

I'm maybe just tackle the 'no boundaries' comment and say something along the lines of 'I assume you don't really mean women and children shouldn't have any boundaries as that sounds a bit like no doesn't really mean no and that children should say anything about abusers'

bd67th · 09/07/2018 14:20

I tend to show people this obstetric fistula documentary then ask what these girls' gender identity had to do with the birth injuries they suffered or the way they were treated afterwards.

The difference between us and them is only a matter of degree: we are still oppressed by reproductive biology and external society, not internal identity.

MsBeee · 09/07/2018 14:30

Magic I’m in the sane boat. I used to be for. It took a while to get my head around it.

V hard as it’s attached to LGB and of course want to be respectful and open minded and inclusive.

It was actually talking to a couple of gay friends who had concerns that confirmed it for me. I think there is so much fear around even trying to talk about it, because you will be called a bigot, rstget than being listened to.
But many are silent and deeply concerned.

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 14:35

Recent thread:

OP BadasIwannaB wrote:
"I’ve been reading the Gender Critical threads on Mumsnet for a few months now and I’m ‘delurking’ to say THANK YOU! To all the intelligent, articulate gender critical feminists here - you are my absolute heroes, and you’re really giving me hope!

I’ve thought for a long time that many aspects of the supposedly right-on rhetoric about gender is deeply misogynist, and I was unsettled and annoyed at how much pressure there is on women not to challenge it, and how much supposed ‘feminists’ enforce that pressure. But for a long time I felt like I must be the only person who thought this, because I wasn’t seeing anyone speaking out, and on the v few occasions where I mentioned any of this to friends, it didn’t go down well. So it’s been hugely inspiring and reassuring to see that there’s this growing community here standing up for women against the bullshit. I’ve literally been reading the discussions here every day for the last few months, and it cheers me up so much! I’ve become such a fan of so many of you: LangCleg, Datun, Bowlofbabelfish, Ereshkigal, Angry Attack Kittens, I could go on and on…

So I started wondering, how many people like me are there reading these threads and cheering silently from the sidelines? I’m hoping there are lots of us. I think it’s easy to think we’re a tiny minority because of all the fear surrounding joining the discussion, but maybe if we all delurked we’d see that that’s not the case.

So any other lurkers wanna delurk?"

Thread (currently has 379 messages)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291425-Gender-Critical-Lurkers

MsBeee · 09/07/2018 15:02

Oh dear, sorry for all the typos in my posts. Must wear 👓

ErrolTheDragon · 09/07/2018 15:04

Any newer lurkers who've not seen this?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Share if you can - I don't know how anyone reasonable could object to women being consulted properly on issues which affect women and girls.

MsBeee · 09/07/2018 15:13

I’m a fan too.

They even quoted me a couple of times in replies. Sigh 😊.
I know they are sooo cool I wanna be in their gang.

Sarahconnor1 · 09/07/2018 15:24

msbeee

I particularly loved this typo I’m in the sane boat

It made me laugh.

terryleather · 09/07/2018 15:35

There is still a part of me, though, that resents him calling himself a woman because it feels like appropriation.

That's because it is appropriation. A man can have no idea what it feels like to be a women. If you (general you) thinks that he can then you're reducing being a woman to a feeling in a man's head rather than the physical biologial reality that it actually is.

I'd go further and say it's not just appropriation, it's entitled misogyny.

Women is not an empty catagory that can be filled by anyone who feels like it.

The space marked woman is already taken by actual females.

MsBeee · 09/07/2018 15:43

I am indeed indeed in the sane boat. Grin

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 15:43

There is still a part of me, though, that resents him calling himself a woman because it feels like appropriation

OP Pratchet wrote:
"And Queen Sarah Ditum's most excellent response"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3300712-Twattery-on-Twitter

Thank you, Feminism Chat
MsBeee · 09/07/2018 15:46

Oh Terryleather.

That description is exquisite in its accuracy. You have put into words something that I have found very hard to articulate.

Woman is not an empty catagory

terryleather · 09/07/2018 15:57

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a factory where they churn out bearded-specs-wearing-woke-lefty-doodbros - pull a string in their backs and they parrot phrases like transwomen are women, TERFS commit literal violence by denying transfolx exist, TERFS are not feminists etc etc etc ...
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MsBee* thank you and yes woman is not an empty category!

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