Thank you, Feminism Chat

[MagicMix]

I don't really post on here very much as I often don't feel like I have anything much to add, but I just wanted to thank you all for reassuring me that I am neither crazy nor a hate-filled bigot.

There is not really anybody I feel safe to discuss gender and sex with in real life, unless on those subjects where my views and the prevailing orthodoxy align. I do have one good friend that favours legalisation of prostitution (I favour the Nordic model) and we've had respectful discussions about that and maintained our friendship without any problems. But the big issue, I think you all know what I'm talking about, I just don't dare to ever bring up or respond to. I don't say things I don't believe, but I do just stay silent.

I used to be fully right-on as well, but really I just hadn't thought about it very much. I just went along with the orthodoxy and now I see the danger of that. I always had niggling doubts. 'If gender is a social construct and we are fighting against that, why can't a woman like and do masculine things without being a man, why can't a man like and do feminine things without being a woman?' I would ask myself. I somehow convinced myself that it was different, but never quite managed to nail down how exactly. I guess I just rejected all critical thought, to be brutally honest about it.

The thing that 'peak transed' me was when a man in our social group came out and said that he was a woman. I just could not make myself believe it, though at first I did try. He just isn't a woman in any way whatsoever. I have sympathy for him and I believe in his case it is trauma from a horrific sexual assault and rape that his mother experienced that is most likely behind his rejection of being a man. But that doesn't make him a man. And then there was a photo (he is involved in local politics) of him with a group of others involved in some council or something, and there were something like 6 men and 1 woman. A woman commented sarcastically about the gender ratio and was rebuked because one of the men was in fact a woman. He was dressed like a man, typically male haircut, male body (obviously), this was before he had even done anything except declare his womanhood and the woman apologised for making the comment! I couldn't believe it. And then I felt angry, because he had exactly the same male privilege as every other man in the photo. There was no basis for claiming a (very slightly) fairer gender ratio based on his involvement. I saw suddenly very clearly how this ideology could be damaging for women.

I have a good friend who is a very liberal right-on kind of feminist and she's just put a post on FB about 'no terfs' and 'no boundaries'. I will never raise this with her. I don't think it would end our friendship but it would change the way she thought of me. I have numerous other acquaintances who would all vilify me if they knew what I thought.

Anyway, sorry for waffling on, but my point is that spaces like this on the internet are so important. Please please keep doing what you do, because people like me are listening, and no doubt others who have their doubts but don't want to be a bigot. Thank you, women of Mumsnet Feminism Chat!

I think that there are more lurkers who think the same as the OP than "woke" people who believe TWAW #NoDebate, both in RL and online

I was chatting to some friends at the weekend and during the course of the conversation we got onto trans issues. I, fairly gingerly, stuck my neck out and said "but of course it is impossible to change sex"...and one of the group burst into tears. It turns out that her sibling has been transitioning over the last two years, and although she obviously only wishes the best for her sibling, the pressure to maintain a "TWAW" stance has been immense, even though my friend absolutely rejects that it is possible to change bio sex. The relief to her in hearing someone else say it out loud was immense

But then I'm not sure I know what it feels like to be a woman either. Don't we all feel different? I have menstruated, miscarried, carried and birthed babies, breastfed babies etc so I have some experiences that are intrinsically linked to my female body, but all women seem to experience even these things very differently (if they experience them at all, which of course is not a given). Sadly, I think if I had to guess at one thing that would be universal for all women, it would be that we have all experienced being made to feel inferior to males. But I'm sure some women would respond to that by saying they've never felt that way.

If I think about what it would be like to be a man, I would have to say that I could maybe make some guesses based on my observations of men, but I couldn't know for sure. But I also can't be sure what it would be like to be my mother, my female colleague, the woman sitting next to me on the train. From reading literature written by men I don't think their internal lives can be so terribly different from the internal lives of women. But then women have been trained from birth to empathise with men. I think a lot of men see women as almost a different species with completely different internal lives - the number of men I've seen freely admitting they won't read books written by women or watch films about women suggests this to me.

Not sure really what I'm trying to say except that gender is bullshit. Our biology is different and this means that 'women' and 'men' are important and relevant categories of human being and always will be. But in terms of our personalities, we are all just individuals and I wish we could operate on this basis. I wish we could be free from gender and I think the trans ideology is encouraging the exact opposite.

But then I'm not sure I know what it feels like to be a woman either. Don't we all feel different?

Yes. There will be commonalities because of biology and patriarchy but no one experiences things in exactly the same way.

To be honest the only time I feel like a women is when biology reminds me or when I become aware of my vulnerability because I'm a women.

I don't think feeling like a woman is relevant tbh.

Sex is a physical reality, a state of being not a feeling.

I don't feel like a woman I just am a woman.

But how I feel about being a woman is something else entirely...

I don't think feeling like a woman is relevant tbh.

Sex is a physical reality, a state of being not a feeling.

I don't feel like a woman I just am a woman.

Yes, exactly that. So the fact that he does feel or can't feel like a woman is sort of neither here nor there. It feels like appropriation because he hasn't experienced any of the many downsides (or positives) that can come from being a woman, but the simple fact of the matter is that he just is a man.
It would be brilliant if 'man' or 'woman' would just be a simple statement of biological fact and a person's potential role in the reproductive process. And all the rest of the baggage that comes from gender can fuck off.

It would be brilliant if 'man' or 'woman' would just be a simple statement of biological fact and a person's potential role in the reproductive process. And all the rest of the baggage that comes from gender can fuck off.

Absolutely this!

thread last week:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295603-A-woman-is-an-adult-female-human

Not sure really what I'm trying to say except that gender is bullshit. Our biology is different and this means that 'women' and 'men' are important and relevant categories of human being and always will be. But in terms of our personalities, we are all just individuals and I wish we could operate on this basis. I wish we could be free from gender and I think the trans ideology is encouraging the exact opposite.*

This is just perfect.

I currently have period cramps. Thete are girls who gave not had them yet, women who no longer have them and a small minority of women who never will. But there sure as hell aren't any men who do.

There are bodily realities which are simply undeniable. Who gets prostate cancer, and who gets cervical cancer? Even the most committed trans person must admit that there is a limit to what physical transition can achieve. Or would they refuse treatment because they were not that gender?

You're sounding altogether too sensible there milkmoustache. If what I've read is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, this identifiying as a woman stuff for some goes as far as believing they're having menstrual cramps. And if that doesn't satisfy, some root around in sanibins for used items. Although where they stuff them I wouldn't like to say.

"Paraphilia" is what it says to me.

There are bodily realities which are simply undeniable. Who gets prostate cancer, and who gets cervical cancer? Even the most committed trans person must admit that there is a limit to what physical transition can achieve. Or would they refuse treatment because they were not that gender?

There is a report on Twitter of a nurse having to do cervical smears on a number of transwomen who were called who of course do not have cervixes(NHS data does not maintain a clear record of biological sex/gender identity).

Presumably the converse risks being true that transwomen may not have checks for prostate cance?

'There is no meanigful definition of the word woman'

Of course there isn't

I wonder if that man can define man. Bet that wouldn't be hard.

Yes, there is. Woman = adult human female.

Can’t help thinking the human race would have died out long ago if it were really so difficult to identify men and women.

Henry VIII would have been all “well Catherine me old mucker haven’t the foggiest what happened but you seem to have had a baby. Let’s call it Bob - who knows if it’s a boy or a girl - one of life’s great mysteries!”. And everyone would have lived happily ever after.

But of course we would have died out long before then because of our poor mating abilities.

I digress but....where do all these young, right-on, pc, brainwashed types come from all of a sudden.

How did we get here? Is it the education system? Growing up in a pc liberal culture/ environment?

More importantly, do we think they will grow up and grow out of it, look back and think, ‘what was I thinking’.

How did we get here? Is it the education system? Growing up in a pc liberal culture/ environment?

They are the internet generation. Bombarded form all angles by transactivist propaganda. Its kind of inevitable that some would fall for the narrative being force fed down them. Though, from what my brother says, those who believe all the nonsense really are few and far between and they just surround themselves with a few likeminded people, and scream bigot at anyone else. Kind of like how the TRA crew on twitter have lists of tens of thousands of women who say things they don't like..to block without ever speaking to them!

I do wonder how long ago MRAs clicked on to this being the perfect way to attack women though. It really was the 'perfect storm' for a long time. Doing all this shit under the radar and just threatening any dissenters into silence. Its got to have been 'planned' for a while. They found a group to attach themselves to who people have a lot of sympathy for and who seem largely harmless (transsexuals) and got to work..

Mras?

Men's Rights Activists, ThePrincipal

Thank you. I obviously have not lurked on the feminist board for long enough to be conversant.