Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

[SpareRibFem]

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

When you have a trauma and are repeatedly told the person who did it is a good person it really messes with your head.

I am very worried about guides, I am very worried about sport, I am very worried for all women and girls.

YY that must have been terrible - I experienced the same but not from that offender. All the times that so many people dismissed my reality nearly sent me crazy until one friend confirmed she had experienced the same behaviour. I can't tell you the relief I felt. And I didn't have to see their faces on TV repeatedly.

I even got a browser extension that changes Trump's photo into kittens as I can't bear his smirks - how he has got away with and even lauded for his offending.

Sarahjconnor: I feel so sorry for what you've been through, and that you weren't believed. Am shocked beyond words at the BBC security guard, though shocked at all of it, of course.

All this stuff has come out now, and yet still things don't change.

Sorry to go back to something at the top of the thread,

Why lie about it all if they believe in it so much?

I agree. If everyone knows that a woman isn't necessarily female and if everyone is happy to segregate by gender and not sex, why the secrecy?

Why don't hospitals, swimming pools and changing rooms say gender identity?

We are moving from sex to gendered segregation, apparently because of public demand, but we have to pretend that it's still sex segregation? Who are we lying to and why?

If we are allowing male bodied people into female spaces but don't tell everyone that's what happening, whats going to happen when women notice and complain?

Are the authorities hoping it's not going to have a big impact, or rely on secrecy again? Are we going to have one class of women with a reputation to protect, and another who simply aren't believed.

It doesn't change as people always fail to join up the dots.
Saville was a paedophile infiltrator. There in plain sight, gaslighting, the shedloads of money (remember Savile's charity work), the befriending of the famous and powerful - including the police, media, royal family and MPs, using the police as personal enforcers, the silencing of all dissent, especially amongst ordinary people who saw something they didn't like. All of this enabled him to abuse children with impunity in hospitals, schools and communities. And I'm so sorry Sarahjconnor about what you went through.

Organisations that want to change society and work with children must operate with openness, support democratic values and most critically, have the safeguarding of ALL children at the heart of everything that they do.

I don't believe for a split second that the trans activist movement is deliberately promoting people like Saville. But I do think that their #nodebate approach and their tacit support for intimidatory tactics is replicating the type of atmosphere where abuse will go unchallenged as people are too intimidated to speak out. The unethical use of untested drugs on children below the age of consent is clear evidence of this as are their evidenced attempts to roll back safeguarding principles eg, telling adults to keep disclosures from gender non conforming children confidential in clear defiance of 'Working Together". The only hope is that as the silencing has evidently failed and those in power are repeatedly confronted by the evident dangers and abusive tactics, somehow they will find the courage and principles to stand up to these groups and make them comply with safeguarding principles, ethical medical practice and democracy. Women are making such a noise about this that when the lawsuits start rolling in, the powerful won't be able to hide behind the 'we had no idea' defence - and will be hit in their personal / corporate pockets. But of course, that will be too late for the victims.

@sarahjconnor you are so right.

I'm so sorry about what you've had to go through.

There #nodebate and courting of the powerful are very much happening now.

Jeremy Corbyn is so far down the trans activist rabbit hole it will be majorly embarrassing for UK Labour to say hang on a minute maybe we should discuss this. He may not be in government but he is in a position of power compared to us. And the longer this goes on the more resistant they are going to be to change. Similarly Lib dems and Greens. Stonewall too.

Whenever there is a climate of fear and secrecy about raising a concern you can be sure there is a problem to be concerned about.

SarahJConnor I appreciate it must be traumatic to have Savilles name come up unexpectedly sorry Your experience and all the other victims experiences should never have happened and briefly I hoped lessons would have been learnt but sadly the main lesson Is that women's and children's voices still won't be listened to and that the main people shutting us up and saying we're in the wrong will be men and other people with a penis these linguistic gymnastics are getting absurd with a chorus of handmaidens to help keep us in line

Whenever there is a climate of fear and secrecy about raising a concern you can be sure there is a problem to be concerned about.

Partly why I started reading threads on this topic - the screaming at people to shut down debate, Jenni Murray being one of the first I noticed, made me wonder why - what was it that were weren't supposed to see.

There was an article in the newspaper yesterday that up to a million cases have not been prosecuted by the CPS and the Police. Lots of these cases were indecent assault, rape, grooming crimes. Also pedophiles not being prosecuted despite evidence.

SarahJConnor so sorry for what you went through

Thank you for sharing your experiences - it really helps me see the bigger picture and reminds me how important it is that we learn from the recent past and join up the dots.

Saville was common knowledge. A friend of mine was one of his victims in the mid 1980s (not as serious as it was for you Sarah, but disturbing nonetheless.)

When she told me and some others in the late 1990s none of us was remotely surprised because we all knew the rumours and assumed them to be true.

I had no connection with the BBC or any other of the institutions invoiced, this was purely common knowledge.

The BBC etc absolutely knew what was going on. Whatever the reason, they did fuck all about it, which is unforgivable.

And I if that wasn't enough, as others have said, there doesn't really seem to have been any learning about it.

Savile was hiding in plain sight. And plenty of ordinary people could see it.

My friend and I once decided that we would write to Jim'll Fix It and my father - who never said no to anything I ever wanted to do - absolutely forbade any such endeavour. "The man is a pervert. Over my dead body will you go anywhere near him. Write to another show."

I sulked for a day. How glad am I now?

Whilst this is different in that there isn't a single highly visible person abusing children, the similarities in the inability to question the situation and high profile support is chilling.

Even if we're wrong for example about girl guiding (and I really hope we're wrong) and no one ever abuses the situation and no girls are ever told to pretend accept that despite external appearances the person with a penis is really a girl thus impacting their ability to impose their own personal boundaries who is it so terrible to ask for an impact assessment and debate?

sarah i think it is really important you shared your experience. it is so relevant.

blaming the assault and abuse of girls on the clothing they wear seems related to something i keep thinking about a lot at the moment; the way in which we are supposed to take personal responsibility for what are systemic failures. don't feel able to express your true personality? well your body must be wrong (not society and its ridiculously constrained binary notions of gender). don't always enjoy sex? well you must be demisexual (nothing to do with natural fluctuations in female cycle or the fact that some men don't understand/care what a clitoris is for). haven't got a well paid career? well you probably haven't worked hard enough / made the right choices / asked the universe the right question (nothing to do with the fact you are working class, your teachers couldn't finish the syllabus because of disruptive students and actually our whole society would collapse without the low paid workers).

baroque i like your point. i think i will raise this with my mp. fine if the whole world has decided gender segregation is more important than sex segregation despite evidence to the contrary. but the public need to be informed so that they can consent, or not, to sharing what were previously understood to be sex segregated spaces. and if we are being forced to go with gender, what about all the other genders? and the gazillions of non binaries that will come out of the woodwork because they are sick of their gender identity being assumed as woman.

Savile was hiding in plain sight. And plenty of ordinary people could see it. "The man is a pervert. Over my dead body will you go anywhere near him. Write to another show."

What a wise dad and yes fortunate for you! That kind of boundary setting is so important for a child for their safety, for their development into an adult and for future generations. Why is ordinary people's wisdom so dismissed? I do believe in the great British public on most things - except getting justice for women... They did shine through the bs on CBB though, didn't they, much to my satisfaction?

Organisations that want to change society and work with children must operate with openness, support democratic values and most critically, have the safeguarding of ALL children at the heart of everything that they do.

This is not enough. Organisations need to recognise that they will likely have people within their ranks who are abusers. That abusers are attracted to these organisations and positions of power. That they are highly likely to already be inside the organisation.

The thing that has changed is the internet and particularly SM, things can’t as easily be an open secret now.

But it is still happening, it will be happening right now and people will be shutting their eyes and ears to blatant evidence of it right now.

Everything enoughisenough12 said. How is Working Together being abandoned? Just how? Certainly not because a powerless, oppressed minority wants it so.

Why is ordinary people's wisdom so dismissed?

I don't know. My dad is eighty now. And even he saw straight through the BBC News item about the lesbians at Pride. Unconscionable was the word he used, and it wasn't about the lesbians.

The general public needs to stop assuming that people in authority are ‘good people’ even if they do ‘good work’ - look at aid workers, another open secret, more protecting of organisations and reputations... I have known about aid workers for years, LOADS of people have...

Lisa Muggeridge on the neccesary and inevitible Safeguarding debate:

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=zV-ZOi8qu60

Lisa Muggeridge comments at: idgeofreason.wordpress.com

recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines

Also recent thread, OP LangCleg wrote:
"Event in Leeds August 1st:
Here's the event page:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/correcting-a-blindspot-women-talking-tickets-47717202437

And here are the topics and speakers:

Kate Belgrave will be discussing the impact of public sector cuts and how difficult it is to get media attention to focus on the systems at stake.

Lisa Muggeridge will be discussing the policy makers, academia and media view of our benefits system, systems that protect from violence, child protection and social care.

Miranda Yardley will be discussing female erasure.

Claire Graham will be comparing two sets of statutory guidance for schools, to illustrate the impact of this blindspot.

We have supplementary speakers from fields including child protection and domestic, campaigners against the Spearmint Rhino in Sheffield, and people who want to discuss the managed zone in Holbeck.

Related Facebook page:

www.facebook.com/Correcting-a-blindspot-Women-Talking-1739047042869701/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296082-Correcting-a-blindspot-Leeds-meeting-organised-by-Lisa-Muggeridge-and-others

Lisa tells the story that a teacher on her social work training told the class that statistics said that at least one of the class was there in the hopes of getting into a position where they could abuse women or children. And that the sooner they learned to incorporate that into practice and reflect on similar power relationships, the better the social worker they would be.

LangCleg
Its significant, I think, to examine the ways in which refective practise in social work and health has been hampered/ de-valued and the consequences of this.

Its significant, I think, to examine the ways in which refective practise in social work and health has been hampered/ de-valued and the consequences of this.

It absolutely is.

That’s good to know lang!

It’s particularly a problem in the third sector I think....

It is an entire sector built on reputation, competing for grants, low oversight of staff/volunteers etc... Look at MESMAC, it’s constitution was abusive from the start...

There are problems with this in any organisation and people should always be aware of it, particularly public authorities where there is a culture of certain people being beyond scrutiny and the organisation being infallible - the police, the nhs, schools but when combined with the third sector this makes for a perfect storm, particularly if the service users have no voice or are abroad.