Family members posting #notadebate on FB

[TrumpsToddlerTantrums]

What do I do?

I knew we had very different views, and I have cowardly not addressed it. My daughter is very much influenced by them, and calls me a white feminist, but I am white and I am a feminist I don't understand the slur you intend knows I have GC views.

We skate around the subject in real life, and my attitude to most things on FB is don't engage, never engage, social media is a blunt instrument, but I've had some 🍷, and I just don't want to let it go.

Wise women of FWR, what should I say?

"We must dissent" ? Anyone who calls for no debate is calling for totalitarian dictatorships?

‘There’s definitely a civil debate to be had here and both sides deserve a voice’

Prepare to be accused of heresy though and unfriended!

I love the idea of being a heretic.

Straight out of The Crucible.

TrumpsToddlerTantrums maybe except that you are going to be seen a certain way by some family members for the views you hold that are diffent to there's, you could debate your views but if they don't share the same views as you then you maybe seen in that light by them.

How can you debate with people who refuse to debate?

What are they so afraid of?

If I start I may not be able to stop. I have bitten my tongue for so many "not every penis is male" posts that I'm afraid if I let it go it will be an extinction level event.

TrumpsToddlerTantrums if you believe in what you think then don't you want them to know so you can convince them of your point of view. my mum Denies that in. trans I visit every week I have for over 10 years and she as never changed she is still my mum and I hope she will one day except me but she as vary rarely shown that she is willing to make any effort. I know. she cares about me but she will not change her view.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Sorry, wrong thread.

Perhaps you could share these two ruse of misogyny with them then wait and see how thy respond.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

Straight out of The Crucible

If I'm pressed, I hope I'll say "More Weight".

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper some of them- particularly verbs: they're the proudest- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

Oh yes.

we really have gone down a rabbit hole lol

Could you maybe ask her to watch this video by the excellent Kristina Jayne Harrison - assuming it reflects your views of course?
Your daughter doesn't need to discuss it, although perhaps she might be willing to since it's not coming directly from her mum, but at least it gets your point across and may, perhaps, plant a seed. Such difficult territory but it's important not to be silenced, for yourself, as her mum, and in solidarity. Good luck!

Well, Bespin , I'm sorry that you don't feel accepted by your mum, and that sort of family division is why I have never brought the subject up. These family members and I live very different lives and I don't have a problem with that. What I absolutely hate is all the labelling that seems to be happening, why does everybody need a label? I would be so happy if we could all be "human", all other differences unimportant. But I also think there is a debate to be had, that there are things that need discussing. Foremost, we need to talk about male violence, this is the issue on which women and trans people have the most in common and #nodebate denies us of the opportunity to address all that we have in common.

If I start I may not be able to stop. I have bitten my tongue for so many "not every penis is male" posts that I'm afraid if I let it go it will be an extinction level event.

I'm not suggesting you should as you know your family but sometimes it's good to clear the air and for everyone to know where everyone stands.

TrumpsToddlerTantrums I can not support no debate as that is why I'm here people want a debate so it needs to be with people with the other view both sides have often tried to stop the other view from being shown as if it's a scary thing. I welcome this because it will let us know if society truly supports us if you win then we will know that we are not where we thought we were and we still have a way to go. but we have been here before and these struggles are never quick and maybe we were to optimistic in what we had achieved

I have wondered too how I would/will react if a friend or family member posts something like that. Hasn’t happened yet but I like to think when it does I will stand my ground. I like Bewildernesses suggestions. Sounds like your daughter knows something of your views on this so pretty confrontational of her. Good luck. Not easy.

Oldstyle my daughter wishes I'd shut up! DH likes to throw the odd conversational "what about those men in dresses?" comments into a dinner conversation, and then he leaves the room whilst WW3 occurs.

Bespin What drives me mad is that we (my DD and I, at least) are arguing for the same thing (the end of the concept of gender) but from opposite sides. We want the same bloody thing, mutual respect, safety and some degree of empathy. Why is that so hard to achieve? Exit stage left muttering darkly about male entitlement

TrumpsToddlerTantrums that is exactly the point we are wanting to achieve the same things in a binary system hut instead of working this through pwople have decided to fight. we have to acknowledge we live in a binary society so there are only 2 options not three for now so society as on. the whole agreed to include us if you persuade it other wish then it will change its mind and we will struggle to function in this binary socilty as. three is no third option. I can understand not wanting to upset your family I didn't come out to my mum for a long time as I knew her reaction was going to be this. I always hoped for the best but knew it would be that

Your DH needs a good slap round the face with a wet haddock. But you probably don't want to waste the haddock.
How important is it to you to say your piece? If it's really important but if face-to-face conversations just end up with WW3 then perhaps you could begin a conversation via the written word (letters/emails) with rules i.e. limit the number of messages per day so that it doesn't turn into a twitter-storm-style explosion; limit the number of words per message so that neither of you feel monologued at. She'd have to agree of course. My daughter and son-in-law were advised to do this when they went to relationship counselling and it was amazingly effective. (They are still together!)

Alternativefacts I have anticipated this for so long, have had the imaginary conversation so many times, I fool myself I'm prepared ( I know that if it came to it I'd probably have that happy menopausal blank brain that hits me anytime I have to make a decision), I'd rather not have the confrontation on FB, there's no nuance to the written word. But, seriously, everything is an f*Ing debate in my house. #notadebate is very triggering.

And yeah, wouldn't waste the haddock, but my DDs smelly flipflops might work on that particular situation!

Agree to disagree - that's a start

When did rational debate become so dangerous? Biology ain't bigotry.

With your DD, I think I might try asking her what she understands about transwomen, Tantrums. Nearly everyone I have spoken to in real life believes transwomen are gay men who have had all the surgeries. When I enlighten them as to the real state of affairs their gender critical views go from 0 to 60 in short order.

For your DH, I the haddock is worth a try.