Lesbians protest at London Pride #getthelout

[miri1985]

twitter.com/hashtag/getthelout?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Ehashtag

www.facebook.com/346828442474237/posts/403582420132172/

These women are bloody brave, if I was wearing a hat I'd tip it to them

Sorry but I have I missed the bit where Sadiq Khan seems to approve of shaming lesbians into sex with male-bodied people? He condemned the lesbians as 'transphobic'? Is he an MRA just like the rest? #rapeculture Mr Mayor

I said : "This is about the fact that lesbians who don't want to accept penis into lesbian spaces were asked to leave the march that is supposed to be a celebration of their sexuality.

Superdandy said: They weren't in the parade (not a march) in the first place, inserted themselves at the front and did in fact lead the whole thing the whole way, so that sentence is a misrepresentation.

Eh? I'll accept the fact that I used "march" when I should have said "parade", but I have no idea what the rest of it means. Can you clarify? DO you mean they were never invited, so could not be asked to leave?

Well, no that doesn't make sense because they were protesting. Whether they were officially part of it or not is neither here nor there.

And I agree that lesbians have every right in the world to protest Pride, which far from representing validation of their rights to be accepted and valued in the world, is now actively contributing to their struggle to exercise those rights. It's COMPLETELY legitimate. And if hurt feelings ensue - they damn well should! Or it would be bit of shit protest.

LadyG
I am so sorry for your experience. I don’t know how you reconcile your situation and I’m glad to hear your spouse was horrified. You sound very strong.

What the gender counsellor said is vile. What would happen they were to say to a man considering coming out as a woman or a transwoman considering gender reassignment surgery “the person inside is the same and surely you don’t let superficial things stop loving yourself?” They would be shouted down as anti trans in a shot. Yet the same is systematically said to lesbian, bi and heterosexual women.

Cathkidston
That’s shocking.

Of course Sadiq Khan is a brocialist MRA - he’s a male Labour politician.

The more I've read about these women's protests the more I understand and realise they are making a very valid stand. But what's the answer to this? Should a self identifying trans woman actually remain a man who identifies with (stereotypical) female behaviour? Essentially a 'fem man'? Apologies if it's a stupid question, I'm genuinely confused.

It's not a stupid question. It should be fine and great to be a femme man. I'm a woman who isn't feminine and I also hope that's fine and great.

If someone wants to say they're a transwoman that should also be fine and great I think.
Although it can make it harder for young men who are femme who don't want to say they're Trans.

But a male person isn't a lesbian.

I want LGBT orgs like stonewall to stand against the kind of pressure described in avery edison's blog.
Stonewall currently frames same sex attraction as problematic.
Women will always be more vulnerable to that pressure than men due to socialization.

Lesbian is not an identity. Lesbian is a protected class defined in law by sex and sexual orientation.

But just to be clear, the protected class of lesbians includes at least some trans women (those with a GRC who have had vaginoplasty at a minimum).

Nope - same SEX attraction is not superseded by a legal fiction that the piece of paper the GRC is. Same SEX attraction does not include someone of the opposite sex irrespective of how they identify or how much body modification surgery they've had. SEX is immutable and constant, unlike gender. SEX matters to same SEX attracted women i.e. Lesbians.

HTH

Do you consider the use of the term " so-called 'transwomen' " acceptable in the context of that flyer being handed out at the front of that parade, or in any other context?

What an odd question. Why are you trying to get an answer to something you already know? I support the protest. Entirely. Many women, lesbian and otherwise, don't subscribe to gender identity ideology, don't accept the term "transwoman" and feel that perpetuating a falsehood is wrong. What term do you suggest they use?

They weren't in the parade (not a march) in the first place, inserted themselves at the front and did in fact lead the whole thing the whole way,

Good. They have every right to be there, after all, don't you think?

A neighbour who works in policy formation in the NHS told her kids that my DC now have two mums because that is what the NHS training in gender matters tells them is always the truth. Had to put her straight in that I am their one and only mum, I gave birth to them, I fed and nurtured them and worked in crappy dead end part time jobs for years to be there for them when they were young. No one is taking that from me

That's awful. How dare she.

They've been told to remove the signs that say lesbian = female homosexual.

Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Trying to remove lesbians from a pride march for knowing what a lesbian is. Jesus christ, its just utter madness. How on earth can more people not see this for the lesbophobic bullshit that it is?!

Oneof2dads

Gender-critical feminists would love a situation where men didn't feel the need to say they are any kind of woman in order to feel comfortable with themselves.
They should be able to feel that their personality is simply one of the many ways of being a man.

If they feel the need to dress or behave in stereotypically feminine ways then they should expect tolerance. I may wonder how it is that we've come so far in so many ways and yet we still have gender stereotypical behaviours presented to us as if they meant anything at all.about our sex.

If they feel themselves disgusted by their male bodies then they should be entitled to mental health support and possible treatment.

My own view is that I am prepared to behave as if a post-op transexual is a woman. However I am not prepared to accept that they or anyone should have the right to decide who is or is not hateful for not wanting to have sex with them. I don't believe that most post-op transexuals do feel that way.

I think it's laughable and disturbing for anyone with a penis, and who plans to keep their penis, to expect me to believe their delusion that they are a woman. I will treat everyone I meet with respect if they afford me the same. And that means them not muscling in to women's spaces, women's, prisons, women's shortlists, women's women's health services, hospital wards, women's award ceremonies, and not speaking about being a woman.

I'll bite. Do you think that anyone who says they're a woman definitely is one super-dandy?

To put it the other way round, if I say right now that I'm a man (even though nothing about me has changed or will ever change), am I one?

Even after I change my body and wear different clothes and have a different name, am I really one?

I'd argue no in both cases; I don't know how you'd feel, but to me you can't switch chromosomes or really change your biological function, and you can't just will yourself out of social conditioning either.

Getting past that; having declared that I'm a man, does that mean I get everything that biological men do and tell them what a man really is?

If men had limited equal opportunity resources like scholarships or refuges or sports, or same-sex relationships, should I instantly get access because of my announcement? And demand that gay men accept me and reframe themselves and their own sexual preferences because of me? Do I get prostate tests and medical care as a man?

This is where gender critical people get cross, because of course you can act like you're a man/woman and society can be kind and accept the social lie with you.

But you're not actually one and shouldn't take resources away from those who need them or lecture the group you're identifying with. You need your own needs met and your own new areas of care and provision.

If this hurts you then you need mental health care to help you through, because we literally can't change basic biological facts. Anymore than we could wish away the gravity or mathematical truths.

*the fact of gravity

Eresh no, I didn't already know the answer, that's why I asked. Now I know that you consider it acceptable. Thank you for answering. I'd like to hear what others supporting the action think too.

And no, I don't think they had "every right" to be there. I think the people who were intended to lead the parade by the parade organisers had every right to be there, and that their lead was wrongly taken away from them by the women in the action.

Thanks SuperLoudPoppingAction that's what I thought. I'm a gay man and although I relate to stereotypically 'female' interests I'd never consider myself female. I am male, end of. We clearly need to separate the genderedness of things (clothes, hair, interests) from the biology of them. Another poster mentions a trans woman being referred to as a second mum their child. As a gay dad to an adopted child we see it as imperative that we ensure our son is made fully aware of his heritage and the huge importance his birth mum & dad. She may not be able to safely look after him now but she did all the hard work in making and carrying him and giving him life.

Lesbians did not have the right to be at London Pride?

And no, I don't think they had "every right" to be there. I think the people who were intended to lead the parade by the parade organisers had every right to be there, and that their lead was wrongly taken away from them by the women in the action.

That's what a protest is though, isn't it? Perhaps the leaders of the Stonewall riot shouldn't have thrown a brick. It wasn't meant to happen. It was wrong.

They had every right to be there because they are lesbians.

Great to see your true colours through Dandy.

Mogleflop Its the "so-called" part that I'm asking about really, because that's the part that's different in the leaflet from the usual rhetoric language of GC feminists.

It seems a hostile term to use, and I'm wondering what the supporters of the action think of it's usage in the leaflet.

Oneof2dads

Did you know that in cultures where homosexuality is frowned upon/ illegal, more gay men are having sex-change operations in order to be able to enact their sexuality? It's more acceptable to change sex than be gay.

And that pressure is what many feel is being brought to bear on adolescent lesbian girls.

It is great to see these brave women standing up to male dominance like this.

Transgender ideology itself is misogynistic and lesbophobic, so those that say women who oppose it are somehow bigoted, are just reversing the truth. I think the accusations of bigotry towards anyone who is a non-believer of transgender ideology, is somewhat like a religious person calling an atheist bigoted, because they are a non-believer of religion.

Lots of people coming out as homophobic this morning

Now I know that you consider it acceptable. Thank you for answering.

I do. Because I think lesbian erasure is wrong. And female erasure to and the denial of our sex based oppression to pander to the feelings of males is wrong. And I think people who don't see this are at best clueless and ignorant and at worst misogynists actively working to undermine women's rights. HTH

Transgender ideology itself is misogynistic and lesbophobic, so those that say women who oppose it are somehow bigoted, are just reversing the truth.

Reversal is their favourite tactic.