Trans Children in their own words.

[CosmicCanary]

So there is a piece in the DM this morning about Mermaids and a recent trans prom they held.

The DM interviewed 9 children about their trans identity and what it means to them and how it started.

These are some of the childrens comments:

15 yo who was brought up by mum and nan since the age of 1.
Started blockers at 12 years old.
I liked to wear princess outfits from the age of 2
When I was 6 mum let me experiment wearing girls clothes
I'd get panicky if a teacher called me he
I wore glittery silver shoes

17 yo who lives with mum and dad who are Christians and 2 sisters.
Puberty felt wrong. I was very unhappy I tried to kill myself many times
I feel my breasts are a useless encumbrance
It was so liberating to go the the prom and wear what I wanted
A gay man had been thrown out of our church

16 yo lives with mum and dad. Parents were reluctant but blockers started at 14 years old.
When I was 4 I was in a fancy dress parade and forced to wear a bikini with a stuffed bra
When I was 6 at a party my friends were all putting on make up I hid so I did not have to join in
When I was 4 I wanted to be a boy
Aged 11 I saw a magician on tv and wanted to wear a suit like his I went on the internet and knew I was trans

15 yo lives with mum dad and sister. Mum is Christian.
To start with I thought I was gay so did my mum she found it difficult to reconcile her faith but then I learnt about transgender
We go shopping together now
I am getting blockers

16 yo lives with mum dad and siblings.
I hated dresses and always wore jeans
I was hysterical at the thought of starting puberty
I wore sports bras and bound my chest and cut my hair short
When I was 12 I realised I was trans
My brain is a boy and my body is feminine

17 yo lives with mum.
At 12 I said to a friend I hated the fact I am a girl. I want to be a boy
I looked it up and realised I am trans and want to change my body
Puberty was horrible I was repulsed by it
This prom waa great I did not have to worry what my body looked like

11 yo lives with mum and dad. Dad is muslim.
I was happy when mum bought me a doll when I was 4
I didnt want to wear trousers
I always like knitting singing and dancing
I socially transitioned at 9
I love sparkly things

13 yo lives with mum dad twin sister and 2 older siblings.
The prom was great and I was able to be myself
My school is accepting and inclusive
I knew from a young age I was different

The things that stand out the most for me is that for those born female it is about their body changing. Their breasts growing and puberty causing them distress. They just want to wear trousers and have short hair.

For those born male its about sparkles and glitter. Potentially their sexuality maybe causing them distress due to their parents religion and social views.

I dont think any of these children are trans and I dont think puberty blockers should be given to 12 year olds.

Lea DeLaria actress from Orange is the New Black.

"sit down to talk with Lea DeLaria. You may know her from her hilarious role as Big Boo in Orange is the New Black on Netflix, but Lea has been around long before OITNB. She has worked on TV, film and stage. She can sing. I mean really sing. And she does stand up. She is funny as hell. In fact, she has been doing stand up for over 30 years. She was the first openly gay comic on television — guesting on The Arsenio Hall Show in 1993, where she also has the amazing distinction of saying “dyke,” “fag” or “queer” 47 times in 9 minutes."

www.huffingtonpost.com/tristan-higgins/post_7957-lea-delaria_b_5564475.html

bespin in modern parlance I know very personally a non binary gender person. Actually I don't think I have an identifiable gender at all. I think it's a restrictive concept that boxes people in

Based on my experiance, I don't see non binary gender identity as Anything other than a normal woman. I don't think that medicalisation / psychology..isation .., treating normal women and girls as somehow "other to the norm" will actually help them ( normal as in common, most typical, as opposed to rare, only saying as I have seen people take offence at the word)

It's like ...tell someone their knee is arthritic and they will start to feel pain that wasn't there before. Maybes people start to feel mental pain if they think they are different. Feeds a negative spiral of thought

That's why I would like more restraint around the whole trans thing in children

[[Ditch the label also have a study highlighting the causes of bullying
www.ditchthelabel.org/research-papers/the-annual-bullying-survey-2017/]]

Thread yesterday which describes the comments by the founder and Global CEO of Ditch the Label in response to Kathleen Stock's interview in Brighton newspaper:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299191-A-new-member-of-the-Leftie-Misogynists-club

relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3289890-great-piece-by-academic-kathleen-stock-mentions-mn

To anticipate any possible comments Bespin as previous stated, I feel it would remiss not to question comments made online by the CEO of a charity involved with vulnerable children.

I am aware of the comments he made about Kathleen and I disagree with him wholeheartedly but the bullying study is just that. A study of 10,000 children regarding bullying.

Boy George & Jon Moss (Culture Club)
my favourite band at the time and the first gig that I went to. In a climate of widespread homophobia of the 1980's George famously claimed to prefer a cup of tea to sex

(extract)
"But it's all still jangling with unfinished business. What George calls the great unresolved romance of the century'' (between him and Jon Moss, the drummer) still casts a long shadow. In the glory days of the early Eighties, Jon and George were the Liz Taylor/Richard Burton of pop: their fights, their screaming matches, their reconciliations were a constant backstage melodrama. Once, in a restaurant, Jon went on the attack with a lobster thermidor. They fought, then made passionate love somehow the two were intertwined. George wrote in his autobiography, Our relationship was built on power-tripping and masochism,'' adding, ``Our love, however diseased, was the creative force behind Culture Club.''

And now Jon is straight, with a long-standing girlfriend, Barbara, and a two-year-old son. He says, bewilderingly, that he was never gay; he just loved George. George says he's barking if he says that."

www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/did-you-really-want-to-hurt-each-other-26260451.html

CosmicCanary

Yes absolutely. Completely understood that, sorry my post didn't make that clear.

@R0wantrees

bespin I've just read the stonewall report. It seems very appropriate to use this report look qualitatively at the experiences of children identifying as trans, and how we as a society can support them.

But it doesn't say anywhere that they are exceptionally open to physical abuse or attack does it? Or did I miss it? (I'm not saying they are not necessarily, but I am really interested in the source)

I read this article and the comments of those born female. I think puberty has become very stressful (more stressful, it's never been 'easy') in a society that is so body obsessed.

I was struck by the juxtaposition of this article next to the sidebar that was all about sexualised bodies of young female celebrities and thought that is is big part of the problem right there.

@bespin Most of us here believe in smashing gender binaries for everyone. We therefore promote gender non conformity which is the same as non binary except that it doesn't marginalise those who choose not to conform. With regard to my dd, you are right that she could go either way, but this will depend on the ideology she is exposed to. You may not be aware of your ideological viewpoint but it comes over very strongly "Who they really are" promotes sexist girl brain ideology that causes dysphoria in my dd. Setting the trans community up as more welcoming, inspiring, braver and more tolerant than others creates an appeal for people like my dd who is wanting to see herself more positively through the eyes of others and is in danger of social isolation due to autism. Finally, "I'm proud of them" Supplanting their parents and romanticising them. This is how it happens.

This 2010 article makes the point that a range of strong and confusing emotions, including about your body's physical changes, occur in typical adolescent development. So saying that being unhappy about the physical signs of puberty is a sign that the child might be trans is taking it a step too far, imo.

The article also makes the point that adolescents need time to explore their feelings and that emotions are good indicators that you are reacting to something and should pay attention to that, but emotions are not good advisors about what should be done (and that such decisions should be made by thinking about the issue instead).

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/surviving-your-childs-adolescence/201007/adolescence-and-emotion%3famp

I wouldn't like to give the impression that only the trans gender narrative is harmful to potentially dysphoric children. Sexism is more common and equally likely to trigger dysphoria. As others have said, exposure to sexualisation and objectification of young women, unnecessarily gendered language (E.g.. "good boy / good girl") any narratives which suggest that boys and girls have a different essence, unnecessary segregation. All of these are what I have to protect her from on a daily basis.

@bespin I will never accept that my dd has a boy's brain/essence/soul. One day she may decide that the prejudice against gender non conformity and daily sexism and oppression she experiences have completely overwhelmed her and she may, as an adult, decide to mutilate her body and take hormones to escape from it. If that happens I will accept her decision and continue to support her but I will be devasted and I will continue to fight against this incredibly harmful narrative.

Ellen Degeneres and her partner Portia De Rossi.

From 2017 Time Article, discussing 1997 front page, 'Yep, I'm Gay':

"Degeneres. You’re the first person that I’ve—I mean I knew that I was going to—that was one of the things when I decided to have my character on the show come out, I knew I was going to have to come out too. But I didn’t want to talk about it until the show was done. And you know, I watched my friend Melissa [Etheridge] come out, and she became “the lesbian rock star.” I never wanted to be “the lesbian actress.” I never wanted to be the spokesperson for the gay community. Ever. I did it for my own truth.

TIME: Why now?

DeGeneres: I don’t think I could have done this a long time ago, and I don’t think people would have accepted it as readily as they do now. Now I feel comfortable with myself, and I don’t have to be fearful about something damaging my career if it gets out, because now I’m in control of it—sort of. No one can hurt me now

TIME: Is being gay something you struggled with?

DeGeneres: No. I ignored it because I didn’t really know what it was until I was 18 years old. I dated guys. I liked guys. But I knew that I liked girls too. I just didn’t know what to do with that. I thought, “If I were a guy I’d go out with her.” And then I thought, “Well, I don’t want to be a guy, really.” So I went, “Oh, well,” and just went on with my life. My first gay experience was literally someone else’s idea–I was freaked out even by the thought of it. And I thought that was one experience and it was just her, and I started dating guys again, thinking, “Well, I just need to meet the right one.” Never could, really."

time.com/4728994/ellen-degeneres-1997-coming-out-cover/

The incidence of mental illness and distress is going up generally. The way in which mental distress is enacted varies. It can manifest in anxiety, eating disorders, self-harm, excessive alcohol or drug consumption - a whole raft of things.

If a lobby comes along and tells a child or teenager that their (very normal, or more extreme) unhappiness/feelings of not being quite right or not being like other people has its roots in them not being in the right body, they may cling to that. Especially if they are more socially isolated than average.

I was up late last night, hot and uncomfortable, and followed a trail on YouTube to the popular trans YouTubers that these young people will undoubtedly have watched.

The appeal is obvious. They are attractive young people, they all do shiny 'collabs' with each other, they clearly have a 'community' feel. The persistently inventive use of language is a very interesting coded method of creating this sense of community - fast-spoken labels for every little quirk of human sexuality and behaviour.
If you are unhappy, isolated for whatever reason and desperate to find your tribe, these videos are a siren call to the rocks.

most of that is sensible advise for a gender non conforming young person, when all of that doesn't work and your child still insists that something is wrong then I would. suggest you keep being positive and supportive and that you listen to them still and help them explore the fact that they might be trans.

@Bespin When you are exploring transness with a young person, is it made clear to them that they cannot change sex? Because if adults tell them that they can, they might believe them.

I 'd also like to know what you mean by "this is about believing your gender is wrong and not your body"

If your gender is an internal feeling, how can it be wrong?

If your gender is something other people are imposing on you then of course it can be wrong, but the answer is t o stop imposing genders not try to change yourself in any way in order to force people to fit you to a different one

I am so horrified reading this. This is experimenting on children pure and simple isn't it?

I am also horrified at the increasingly cavalier way that 'trans kids will kill themselves' is bandied around. Not only is it untrue, but its so damaging and goes against everything organisations like the Samaritans advise about discussion around suicide. It feels like that message is just getting shouted louder and louder. Do these people not stop and think about how that message might affect a teenager who is actually going through those issues?

I also hate the way that the plight of trans sex workers in South America, is appropriated by the trans lobby over here and turned into 'trans people are x times more likely to be murdered'. It's just gobsmacking really.

If someone rewrote Enid Blyton's Famous Five, George would be on puberty blockers.

I identified with George. In games as a child I always chose a gender ambiguous name George, Harry etc

See also Jo (Little Women)

Just a personal observation; 14 or so seems to be a dangerous age for certain girls. I’d be interested to know if anyone has done any studies as to when girls develop eating disorders, start self harming, go off the rails in other ways (unsuitable relationships, substance abuse).
At my convent school in the 1960s, it was the point at which some girls would become very religious and express an interest in becoming nuns - described as becoming “brides of Christ”, embracing chastity, various forms of self harm (including breast binding) and voluntarily restricting eating by regular fasting.

I also hate the way that the plight of trans sex workers in South America, is appropriated by the trans lobby over here and turned into 'trans people are x times more likely to be murdered'. It's just gobsmacking really.

The Scottish GRA consultation document stated that depression and anxiety in transgender young people in Scotland was due to discrimination, lack of acceptance, and the abuse they received. The study they referred to as 'proof' of this was a study of transgender sex workers in Mexico City.