Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

Glitched: no one has an opposite sex brain in their body. Not one human being has that.

Not when you consider that "woman" is also used in a medical context e.g "Women's reproductive health clinic".

sanluca
The most interesting concept is women being social and female being sex. Women as an adult human female then doesn't work, does it?

Only if there is some non-circular 'social' definition of woman in the offing. But we don't seem to have uncovered one in this thread at least.

It had better not be anything along the lines of 'Person who endorses/conforms with their society's feminine gender norms' since there are many women who don't meet this definition and still nevertheless think of themselves as women.

One alternative is 'Person who has feminine gender norms enforced against them by their society'. But while this allows that some transwomen are women it does not cover all cases (such as those transwomen who keep their transidentity a secret, or those who don't present in a feminine way). So that definition is no good for TRA's purposes.

If the 'social' concept of woman is neither of those, what else could it be? Any suggestions?

I presented a perfectly valid definition as requested by OP.

Now you're all trying to shift the goal posts by pretending you don't know what trans means.

Can you repeat: I missed it

Oh I read it. Lol.

No, not at all.

If a definition of woman is - adult female human and transwoman then you have to explain what you mean by trans...

No-one is shifting the goalposts, if laws are being changed then this is really important.

Likewise re ‘identifies as a woman’ - it needs to be explained and defined otherwise it the laws won’t actually work.

Re any new definition of ‘woman’ designed to ‘include’ it’s really basic stuff to explain who, out of the group previously not considered to be women, will now be included in the group classification called ‘woman’ and why they should be included in a group classification they have not been included in before.

Why do I suddenly have to do that? We all know what trans means.

I haven't asked you to define what 'adult' means. That's a definition itself that varies from country to country.

Can you define adult?

Adult - Fully grown or developed.

(including transadults)

Glitch: if you say a woman is an adult human female, you need to know what female means. Do you know what female means.

My 15-year-old identifies as an adult. Is he an adult?

No, seriously glitched, there seem to be many and various interpretations of what 'trans' means. In the old days, we understood fairly well what 'transsexual' and 'transvestite' meant. Using these old fashioned terms in an attempt at clarity, a male transsexual might well fit into a 'social' redefinition of 'woman' , but do you really think a male transvestite would? Yet now, both of these (and more) come under the 'trans umbrella'.

Why do I suddenly have to do that? We all know what trans means.

No we don't. Why can't you answer a simple question? Any definition you like, just so we understand where you are coming from.

I’m asking you to explain what you mean by ‘trans’ in your definition.

The fact that the age of majority differs by culture is irrelevant as is the fact that what is considered masculine/feminine in each culture differs.

Within each culture ‘adult’ is the age of majority (this is true no matter what particular age is considered the age of majority) and I believe ‘trans’ is relative to standards of feminity/masculinity in each culture.

There are different definitions of what trans actually means though (to what extent not conforming to gendered expectations puts someone in the ‘trans’ category) so, given it is central to your definition of woman I am asking you how you define ‘trans’.

given it is central to your definition of woman I am asking you how you define ‘trans’.

YY.

If you can’t answer this question clearly then it cannot be used in legislation because the definition of words in legislation matters.

Why do I suddenly have to do that?

Because the whole thread is basically about circular definitions.

You don't want to say sexist stereotypes. Why not just admit it?

Glitched. I think that asking us to define adult is a fair point actually. It's a good example of legal/bio definitions IMO.

Adult: a human or other organism that has reached sexual maturity.

Social and legal constructions of adulthood vary. It doesn't change the fact that, biologically, we become adults at sexual maturity.

Now please define trans. I think it's fair that those who wish to change society in such a fundamental way define their terms.

I don't know what trans is. Five years ago it meant transsexual. Now apparently I am trans myself according to Stonewall.

So, in a legal context the word woman unambiguously can be taken to mean, 'human female who has reached the age of legal adulthood ' ( there's probably a neater way to formulate it).

I think it can, Errol.

Why do I suddenly have to do that? We all know what trans means

I thought i knew what woman meant ..apparently ive had that wrong for over 40 years

*Jygrant,
*
If the 'social' concept of woman is neither of those, what else could it be? Any suggestions?

No, no idea. I just found this one interesting as I had never come across it. Having women equal gender, female equal biology, but then the definition of woman falls down, so the split doesn't work.

When talking about gender stereotypes I always use words feminine and masculine. Women and female as biology as far as I am concerned. Like most people. I really think we need to stick to this one as society as it makes for most concise legislation.