Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

Surely it's feminine and femininity that is the social construct? Different cultures express it differently- it's mutable in a way that woman's isn't.

Why should a woman have to "pass" to be treated as a woman? But if she doesn't, many here will treat her as a man so what choice does a trans woman have?

I think what you mean is ‘why should someone with male biology be held to different standards of feminity simply because they are trans?’

Well, my whole point was that I feel this requirement is offensive and oppressive. I don’t think transwomen should be held to different standards.

I don’t think any person should be held to standards regarding masculinity or feminity. Particularly in order to gain rights to be protected from discrimination. IMO that is abhorrent.

However that has come about because of the rights being sought being based on sex not gender.

Though your example is a perfect description of why transwomen and women have different experiences and needs TBH. If a transwoman is read as male (not just if they obviously don’t pass but all the time people are being kind to them as well) then they may be treated as a man who transgresses against masculinity. This treatment varies from supportive (bravery, celebration etc) to violently oppressive (rape, assault).

If a woman doesn’t conform to feminity standards she is either considered an ugly woman or a dangerous woman and in some particular circles which are women only then she may be supported but in wider society she is facing an increased risk of violence.

OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!

WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORD "WOMAN/ WOMEN" HAS A BIOLOGICAL MEANING???

IT'S NOT TOUCHY FEELY. IT MEANS ADULT FEMALE.

THE WORD YOU LOT ARE DESCRIBING IS "FEMININE".

FOR FUCKS SAKE, I'M SICK OF PEOPLE BEING DELIBERATELY STUPID AND OBTUSE.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT A WOMAN IS, WE ALL CAME OUT OF ONE.

LEAVE "WOMAN" AND "FEMALE" THE FUCK ALONE, AND HAVE "FEMININE" BECAUSE THAT'S THE WORD YOU'RE ALL DESCRIBING.

I'M SO SICK OF THIS SHIT!

Sorry for all the shouting, but I'm done with these deliberately obtuse idiots.
I really don't think anyone actually believes you can IDENTIFY as a woman, not unless they're deluded. In which case they need help.

snappity (glad to see you here BTW, can I ask in passing what your own definition of 'woman' is?)

Why should a woman have to "pass" to be treated as a woman?
Nobody should have to pass as anything in my view. People should be free to present and express their personalities in any way they wish.

But if she doesn't, many here will treat her as a man so what choice does a trans woman have?
Very few transwomen will pass. It is cruel to encourage them to do so IMO. And, forgive me, but transwomen are male. There is nothing wrong with being a transwoman. But they remain male, as is almost always evident.

But there's double standards here. If a woman wears a pretty dress or has a boob job she is expressing her womanhood. If a trans woman does the same things she is criticised for seeking affirmation or trying to pass. It's terribly unfair.

Why would TW be criticised for wearing dresses or undergoing cosmetic surgery? They should behave as they think fit.

The sticking point is that neither of these things make a person female. Nor are they to do with expressing womanhood. There have been plenty of times and cultures where boob jobs and pretty dresses were unavailable and went unmissed.

Glitched
"Woman = adult human female (including transwomen)

Man = adult human male (including transmen)"

Are you using 'female' as a biological term or not? If you are then a transwoman who has a penis, is not taking hormones etc., would come out as both a man (because she is 'an adult human male' in a biological sense) and a woman (because she is a transwoman). Presumably, anyone looking for an 'alternative definition' (and indeed many of those who aren't) does not want to say that a transwoman like this is a man.

If, on the other hand, you're not using 'female' as a biological term but just as a synonym for 'woman' then your 'definition' amounts to saying "Woman = Adult Human Woman". But then we've still not arrived at a non-circular definition of woman.

Who on here gives a shit if a male human being wears a dress?

Waiting...

waiting...

waiting...

Oh, that's right. Precisely none of us.

And what does "being treated as a woman" actually mean? I will happily call a transwomen Mary and she. What else?

Snappity: "Why should a woman have to "pass" to be treated as a woman?"

The point is that a person should not be treated (in reality or legally) as a man or a woman based on whether they "pass" or not. Few people on here have any interest in how anyone else presents

People should be treated (especially in law) as a man or a woman based on their biology, not on their outward presentation.

FOR FUCKS SAKE, I'M SICK OF PEOPLE BEING DELIBERATELY STUPID AND OBTUSE.

Well I suppose I could shout about people deliberately refusing to understand the social construction of the interpretation of scientific observations, but actually I think it's interesting to have a thread where we discuss different people's perspectives, and reasons why there might be a variety of understandings about something that seems obvious. I don't know if you'll believe me, but I'm not trying to piss you off.

As with homosexuality, protection from discrimination for gender identity is actually entirely dependent on sex class...

This forms the foundation of my belief that actually replacing sex with gender will result in harm to trans people, women and homosexuals...

I don’t think this has been properly thought through by those lobbying for it. Gender identity can only be protected if sex class is also protected.

If a woman wears a pretty dress or has a boob job she is expressing her womanhood.

Nope. If a woman wears a dress, or has a boob job, then all it means is that she has put on a specific article of clothing OR undergone a surgical procedure.
She is not "expressing her womanhood"
An argument might be made that she is performing femininity, depending on her specific circumstances.
What if that woman was being coerced to get a breast enlargement by a controlling boyfriend? Is this still "expressing womanhood"?
Many feminists are against coding larger breasts or items of clothing as somehow emblematic of what it means to be a "good woman."
Please do not perpetuate these stereotypes.

Rat I was interested in your 'pattern' example, may I ask what school of philosophy you belong to?

It maintains the current definition of woman as an adult human female but also includes transwomen. I am not erasing biology or reducing anything.

What are the parameters of the group of biological males you want to define as part of the class "women"? Anyone who says they are one, like Rat? How does this not make the class "women" meaningless?

'Woman is an adult human female' works for me.

I may be bullied and coerced into using terms like transwomen that I know contain a lie to be able to speak but nothing will change that definition

@Ereshkigal

The parameters are people that are trans

Why should a woman have to "pass" to be treated as a woman? But if she doesn't, many here will treat her as a man so what choice does a trans woman have?

But there's double standards here. If a woman wears a pretty dress or has a boob job she is expressing her womanhood. If a trans woman does the same things she is criticised for seeking affirmation or trying to pass. It's terribly unfair.

Eh?

Women don’t ever “pass” because to “pass” means to have adequately obscured the outward expression of your sex as to convince an onlooker that you are the opposite sex.

Women are identifiable as women regardless of dresses and boob jobs, which are merely behavioural actions borne of personal preference.

A women is something you either are or are not. Transwomen are not women and it is immaterial whether or not they are able to adequately obscure their sex enough to trick people. “Fair” doesn’t come into it, that’s just how it is.

What does being treated as a woman mean?

Glitched - how do we know someone is trans?

FFS

You know you're in trouble when the people being listened to on fundamental issues of women's human rights think that a woman having a "boob job" is "expressing her womanhood".

Cosmetic surgery for non medical purposes is a harmful cultural practice it is not "an expression of womanhood".

Rat I was really quite serious in wanting to find out what area of philosophy you are grounded in. It's clear that you have spent time presenting examples, with philosophy as the explicit foundation for their relevance. It is also clear that a number of people on the thread have expended time and energy trying to engage with them. I would not want to dismiss someone's ideas out of hand but without clarification/citation it is hard to decide where you are really coming from. For various reasons I have a number of contacts in the field of philosophy and between us we find it hard to pinpoint the philosophical underpinnings for your examples/assertions, which on the surface do not appear to be entirely coherent both in areas of analytical and continental philosophy. It would therefore be helpful and reassure posters that you are presenting arguments in 'good faith' if you were to provide more details of the frameworks that support your argument.

@Offred

Do you accept that a minority of people are trans?

It depends on the definition of ‘trans’...

If we are going with the Stonewall definition then I actually think the vast, vast majority of people are trans. In fact it is very hard for me to imagine how somebody could really be considered to not be trans TBH.

If the definition of trans is based on a belief that you actually are the opposite sex, dysphoria and deep discomfort with your sexed body and expected gender role then yes, I’d say that applies to a minority of people.

Could you answer my question now?

The parameters are people that are trans

What does "trans" mean? There are a number of possible interpretations. I'd like to know which one you're referencing.

Very interesting conversation, thank you for all of that. I think we now have three definitions on the table, but none that can be used in a court of law? Am I right?

The most interesting concept is women being social and female being sex. Women as an adult human female then doesn't work, does it?

I’ll tell you what I think glitched, for clarity...

I think it is impossible to define trans without reference to sex class. This makes trans rights dependent on sex classifications.

Uncomfortable as it may be for the minority of people who have great difficulty accepting their sex class, trying to erase the the recognition of sex class is actually working towards erasure of trans rights... and it is taking women and homosexuals down with it.