Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

The problem with the theory that 'woman' is already used to mean 'feminine gendered person' rather than 'female person' is that is is not true.

If the populace at large genuinely understood 'woman' to mean 'anyone who identifies as a woman' there would be no need for any of this push for greater inclusion of trans people into the spaces and groups that they identify with. It would already be happening naturally.
The reason that people have to be 'persuaded' browbeaten into saying that trans women are women is because people don't really believe that women includes trans women. That fact may be attributed to widespread transphobia by some, but that explanation is up for debate. It's not the explanation I accept; in my view, it's because the general populace understands 'woman' to mean 'adult human female' and the belief that it includes trans women is a philosophical hypothetical, not reality.

Is there a reason why the definition of "man" could not be widened to include non gender conforming men who present as women?

Is there a reason why the definition of "man" could not be widened to include non gender conforming men who present as women?

The idea that society should demand anything of men is verboten?!

@Elletorro don't worry about it, I've done that before :)

I will say though, whilst I'm fit and strong and fairly secure in my looks, I'm not as rich or well-to-do as all that. But I don't mind if you say I seem so. And because I'm a massive over-sharer, I'll say I can be fairly sure that if I told you my life story you wouldn't believe me; I bet that goes for many of us here!

More importantly though (because I hear a lot that I'm an optimist, and it both amuses and perplexes me), the reason I have more belief than most in the human ability to overcome obstacles and achieve in the face of adversity is not because things have always been so for me. It is rather because I have been so far down at rock bottom and for so many years that I was nearly dead, and yet here I am.

Hope you didn't mind my little heart to heart!

"The idea that society should demand anything of men is verboten?!"
Well, obviously that. And also the undeniable fact that men suffer permanent errectle disfunction if they spend any time with men who aren't properly manly.......

No, it can't Bertrand. The category "man" needs to be tightly policed and impermeable, else it might get contaminated by girl-cooties. And as we know, that's like what happens when matter comes in contact with anti-matter. The whole universe goes POOM! in a little puff of smoke.

Rat-optimism is a wonderful thing. I am a "that glass is not only half full it's half full of prosecco" type myself. But there are practicalities around self Id that need to be properly thought through. The sport thing, for one. It's no point saying that it'll be fine-because it has already shown itself not to be.

And also the undeniable fact that men suffer permanent errectle disfunction if they spend any time with men who aren't properly manly.......

All the LOLs!

The penis is such a low value item. So easily wilted. I don't think they should refer to sky scrapers as phallic symbols. If they were such, they'd be constantly falling down.

I think it should and the same image (non gender conforming man) could say man or woman underneath

It should be man. We can change the meaning of that word instead

Right now we are starting to see marketing from brands doing the opposite

The penis is such a low value item. So easily wilted. I don't think they should refer to sky scrapers as phallic symbols. If they were such, they'd be constantly falling down.

It wouldn't be much fun working on the top floor that's for sure.

Optimism is a luxury that the privileged have and the underprivileged can't necessarily afford to have.

Meh, I don't even think I'm an optimist; it's bizarre to me that I get told on here I must be. But honestly it's weirder to me that anyone would think optimism is a preserve of the privileged. That's like saying happiness is, or patience, or kindness. Oh, the luxury of patience, you are truly a reflection of my privilege!

Optimism and hope belong to people who have resources.

Rat- I think it was you said something to the effect that you were sure the issues with sport would sort themselves out, wasn't it? Or am I mistaking you for another optimist?

Rat: you have not responded to the destruction of your claim that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman. You are not here in good faith.

Hence "woman" emerged as a way of classifying people with vaginas. There's a couple of arguments here of why we shouldn't follow this classification.

Here are some compelling arguments why we should keep it:

1. The people with vaginas are at risk of forced pregnancy perpetrated by the people with penises, and we need to be able to name that.
2. The people with penises are responsible for most of the killings in the world, and we need to be able name that.

The "let's stop using a collective noun for the gestational reproductive class" argument is as bullshit as white people saying "I don't see race". If you refuse to see race, you cannot see racism. If you refuse to name and hence acknowledge biological sex, you cannot see sexism. This erasure of the ability to see sexism is a feature, not a bug, as far as MRAs, TRAs, and wider patriarchy are concerned.

It has occurred to me that in this culture being gender non conforming is punished harshly, for both men and women... unless you say that you are trans. Then you go from being punished and pushed from the margins of society into stunning and brave status, it's not hard to see why the social contagion is so effective. It gives GNC people an easy fix to those feelings of discomfort. Sadly I think the result will be a lot of unhappy people detransitioning in the not too far distant future.

Morgaine yes! I’ve bemoaned the apparent demise of GNC people across a number of threads. Maybe we should start a thread in celebration of awesome gender non conforming people in the public eye, past and present?

I really can’t see how postmodern theory can be the deciding factor here?

How indeed? Can postmodernists actually decide or define anything substantive?

Quote:
Analytic philosopher Daniel Dennett declared, "Postmodernism, the school of 'thought' that proclaimed 'There are no truths, only interpretations' has largely played itself out in absurdity, but it has left behind a generation of academics in the humanities disabled by their distrust of the very idea of truth and their disrespect for evidence, settling for 'conversations' in which nobody is wrong and nothing can be confirmed, only asserted with whatever style you can muster.

I'm inclined to think that the definition anything that has material substance (which includes a working brain) should be left to scientists.

I'm still interested in the area of expertise which informs your definition, RatRolyPoly.

I don't think that we should need any advanced qualifications to understand the definition of 'woman'.

If you identify as a thing with an objective definition, whilst not possessing the characteristics of that definition, then
You are wrong.

If you identify as adult, human, and of the sex class that produces ova
Whilst actually being adult, human, and of the sex class that produces sperm...

You are wrong.

'Identify as' can very effectively be substituted with 'am not', or 'wish I was'. It's getting so that I can't hear the phrase without knowing that what follows will likely be untrue.

It's become the equivalent of "No offence, but..."

I genuinely feel embarrassment when someone puts forth the argument that you can 'identify as' something.

Either declare the truth using mutually understood language, or risk losing all credibility.

A lot of this discussion is 'philosophical neither here nor there' because it's actually the case that Rat is an activist and propagandist to change the word woman to mean ladybrain. Talking about how it's socially understood as different among a group of men and their supporters doesn't make it true.
Rat knows exactly how to use Foucault to gain political power. This is what people like Rat did to the Deptford project: steamrolled these new language ideas over their realities.
Also I also got a first. But I didn't understand the gibberish earlier properly, or I couldn't be bothered. Ipso facto firsts don't make you smarter or have greater academic authority.

Rat doesn't understand the first thing about critical thinking. But that's not necessary to get a First. You don't even have to take a logic module for Philosophy now.