Gender neutral school uniform = Trousers

[ItIsOnlyAnOpinion]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5906031/Girls-banned-wearing-skirts-40-schools-insist-gender-neutral-uniforms.html

No more skirts.

Why 'kilts' rather than the standard A line or pleated skirt? The only reason is because kilts are accepted as being a form masculine attire. hmm

Fairly sure it’s because kilts can’t be readily shortened by adjusting the hem - dedicated skirt-shorteners have to resort to rolling the kilt up at the waist, which is easily spotted and easily reversed.

Yes, the style of skirt would need to be difficult for students to shorten.

One type of regime has women being told what to wear and it is not a liberal democracy.

Good article in the Guardian about this.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/02/banning-school-skirts-uniform-misogyny-upskirting-sexualisation-blaming-girls-gender

Why should girls and women be held responsible for the reprehensible behaviour and desires of men and boys?

One type of regime has women being told what to wear and it's not a liberal democracy
That's irrelevant in a discussion about school uniform. Boys and girls are being told what to wear while at school. It's pointless having a uniform if the school isn't allowed to set what the uniform is.
I too am disappointed to see a choice removed from girls... and dismayed to see feminists supporting it
Yet we're always being told that feminism isn't about choice, so why wouldn't feminists support it if they think the reasons justify it?

Up here in the grim north, we have a lot of haredic and hasidic Jews, the woman and girls of which wear skirts for religious reasons concerning the prohibition of "women in men's raiment". I was nodding along with most of rhe thread until I remembered them. They tend to go to jewish schools, but any chance of mainstream schooling would be tanked if they had to wear trousers. They also swim in women-only swim sessions so need female spaces to stay for females.

If you read the rest of my post you will see why I don’t think it’s justified.

Sorry that was in reply to no

not only hasidic jews but some strict brethern churches and strict baptist churches also disagree with women wearing trousers it may seem daft that they do but if we make allowances for muslim girls to wear hijab for their faith or they were allowed trousers when other girls wore skirts, they must make allowances for jewish/christian girls not allowed to wear trousers

some of these would withdraw their daughters from school, not on this issue but I think the possibility of biological males being in female spaces in schools will also lead to the withdrawal of some muslim/ jewish and christian girls from school especially trips involving overnight stays

I too am disappointed to see a choice removed from girls... and dismayed to see feminists supporting it
Yet we're always being told that feminism isn't about choice, so why wouldn't feminists support it if they think the reasons justify it?

I think some feminists just loathe the idea that there are girls and women who like things associated with femininity . They loathe it so much that they will latch on to and support something like this.

In the course of doing so they are happy to ignore the offensive reasons given by the headmaster here about it being for reasons of decency and are happy to ignore and belittle any different opinion.

I think they are hypocrites driven by their own personal dogma and prejudice.

After reviewing the thread and seeing how women relied on skirts to accommodate the Thames Barrier of sanpro and recognising the religious needs of very orthodox Jews, I'm convinced: girls need the choice of a skirt. YY to previous posters who said that men who see a child's leg and think of sex are perverts: when I was wolf-whistled in uniform, my skirt was not rolled-up but even if it had been, men who see a child in school uniform and think of sex are paedophiles end of.

My DC went to a school that banned skirts in the era of very short skirts with side split. They decided they were impractical for the modern era. They also had long lessons with plenty of activity and drama classes in all the pre-GCSE years and trousers are less restrictive. They also ditched the ties at the same time for the same reasons. My DC have been all the way through it and the only problem is that they cannot tie ties very well in adult life, which has only really been a problem for DS who is a bit hopeless at anything he would rather get you to do for him..............and even he can do it now.

We also have strict religious groups here. They have their own schools and never, ever go to the state schools. They then go on to get married and support their husband in the business he does not own, and have babies. A few go on to be solicitors etc to be useful to the community. I don't think the uniform situation would make any difference to that.

we're always being told that feminism isn't about choice,

Are we? More that isn't just about choice. But it sure as heck isn't about removing the choice of a normal form of attire which has good reasons for being preferred by some girls and women,
As far as I can see^ the majority of the feminists on this thread are broadly in agreement with that. Some hadn't thought it through from the POV of other women and are now persuaded, which Is rather the point of debates! And of course, at least some^ of the people in favour of denying choice aren't feminists

it has to be bought from a single supplier.

Do you have any idea how much single-supplier uniforms cost? Do the poor not matter any more. I've just seen the Indy article and I am seeing red: skirts have been banned because they can be “undignified and embarrassing” for staff and visitors when girls sit on the floor in assemblies and drama classes.

It's bloody embarrassing for the girls to have to flash their knickers when sitting on the floor, but they don't count, right? I remember how sitting comfortably cross-legged was impossible in my mandatory school skirt and we all had to sit sideways which bends your back and you have to put one hand on the floor (how hygienic) to support your torso. Give them chairs FFS.

And offer culottes: the right cut looks like an a-line or circle skirt, has a deep crotch for san pro, and has the crotch to give modesty.

Italics fail there, sorry.

Do you have any idea how much single-supplier uniforms cost?

I just had a quick look ... tartan school kilts seem to run from £30 up. Not a viable option for many.

you may think there should be no allowances for any religious group, but if you make allowances for one faith you can't then logically or ethically refuse to make allowances for other religious groups
I do not think either brethren or the very strict baptists have their own schools, I know a lot about strict baptists and they don't have their own schools they attend state schools but would not participate in certain things like theatre and some would not do any after school clubs

We shouldn't add barriers to children from religious minority families entering mainstream schooling, whether they have their own schools or not. We especially should not add barriers to girls entering mainstream schooling.

Whilst I agree that it is wrong to add to the barriers for religious groups, I think it is more of a theoretical problem, because there are more and bigger barriers to mainstream schooling for them. I think it is very important to keep places like refuges single sex because if these women stray from their community their whole life is cut off and there is no support. If it is only one woman a year it is worth it.

Its interesting to focus on the reasons behind this decision.

For decades, many girls have been asking to have the option to wear trousers. I remember back in the 1980's being part of a very respectful but unsuccesful petition to the Headteacher.

Just as recent article described how primary school sports at a Scottish school would no longer have boys and girls races,
"The decision was made following the release of new guidelines for LGBT kids"
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5794361/Primary-school-Inverness-scraps-boys-girls-races.html

discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3265307-Primary-school-scraps-boys-and-girls-only-races-from-its-sports-day-because-they-exclude-transgender-children

See also recent article about situation in Scotland, 'Schools 'forget' girls in rush to adopt pro-trans guidance campaigners claim' :
(extract)
"A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls.

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account." (continues)

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

The Brethren do have one, teacup - Hornby in Lancashire. I believe it was a former state school which closed and then they reopened it as a Free School but now it appears to be independent. www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/schools/focus-school-hornby-campus-lancaster.

I remember wearing coullots in primary school - look nice and more practical. I still wear them now.

Some idiot on GMB said we need to ban skirts to make girls more active and they're not practical for PE.

She didn't seem to realise snr school girls don't really do running and playing and you don't do PE in your uniform.

Our local Brethren used to be in mainstream schooling when I was a girl but it proved too tricky (they are a more extreme bunch who won't allow any TV radio computer use etc) anyway they built their own school maybe 20 years ago and all go there.

We have a large hasidic jewish populaiton nearby as well and they have some of their own schools but also I believe attend some local ?voluntary aided jewish schools (forget which sort it is where you get less money and have more freedom but are in state sector) so this would be actual for them although I don't imagine many people from outside the community attend (if any) and so this would never come up as they will have the uniform how it suits them.

I have massive issues with religious schools in state sector in UK but that's another point entirely. My part of london most schools are religious of one type of another.

Someone mentioned sitting cross legged in class.

The most comfortable option for sitting or kneeling is a circle, pleated or half pleated skirt. The material forms a sort of tent inder which you can arrange your limbs however you want.

Unless trousers have a bit of give in them by elastane or similar they will be less comfortable than a full skirt.

If there is a big community of Hasidic jews near this school they should obviously take that into account.

I often wore skin tight trousers to school that my sister bought me. I wore them coz they looked fashionable and didn't really think about how much they showed my legs and bum. Obviously I got a lot of unwanted attention.

I think it's fine for feminists to point out that while we shouldn't dictate how girls or boys dress (within reason) there is a creeping sexualisation of young girls going on that's so prevalent, its hard to even notice sometimes.

I don't think skirts necessarily mean sexual objectification but I do think it's okay to be aware this is one factor at play in how girls dress.