The mother of Tom Daley's child

[Pratchet]

Congratulations on a healthy baby! Hope the birth went safely and that you are recovering well.

I just hate surrogacy in case you can't tell

That link Floorplan!

I’m impatient for the left to more fully embrace trans reproductive justicece, a matter of life and death not ‘up for debatete’. As Chikako Takeshita noteses_: “While acknowledgement that not all women are mothers is fairly commonplace, the fact that not all pregnant or potentially pregnant persons are mothers or women has yet to transform our language and conceptual frames substantively.” Heel-dragging on the part of ‘skeptics’ is doing us all harm.^

Black gestatorsrs_are still “three to four times” more likely than white ones to “die from pregnancy”.^

Which links to a book by some "heel dragging skeptics" where womanhood and motherhood is referenced constantly. Idiotic pomo nonsense.

This thread would not exist if a hetero couple did it.

Rubbish. People are reacting in the same way regarding the Kardashians and other celebs using surrogates. There is no earthly reason to delete this thread unless you want to delete discussion of (mostly) poorer women being used as commodities.

“I have never heard anyone complain about commercial surrogacy, therefore nobody’s had a problem with it until now!”

Yes. Yes we have. For a long time, for gay couples and straight couples, for surrogates in the US an surrogates in India/Thailand/Georgia.

Shame on some of the posters here.

Shame on you for thinking that people who think of women as incubator vessels are beyond criticism. This is the Feminism board, btw. Women's rights issues are discussed here. This is not homophobic.

Surrogacy may havebeen around for decades, but it sure is a different beast now. Decades ago we didn’t have loads of rich celebs openly using surrogates. Decades ago we didn’t have desperately poor Indian women shacked up in baby farms.

@littlemissdynamite except several heterosexual couples have been mentioned.

But don't let that stand in the way of your rant.

All those saying this is fine because she got paid for it, do you support being allowed to sell your organs too? If I'm in debt or living on the breadline is it okay for me to sell my kidney to a rich bidder? Should that be supported, and people online discuss what a kind and generous gift I chose to give, of my own free will?

Surrogacy has been a thing for DECADES now

So that means what exactly?
That it cannot be discussed?
That opinions for and against cannot be had?

This thread would not exist if a hetero couple did it.

KK and Caprice have already been mentioned plus those against commercial surrigacy have stated the sex of the couple makes no difference to why they are against it.

I'm very disappointed that being against commercial surrogacy is seen as being gay-bashing.

The expenses for a UK surrogate are limited to what is reasonable in terms of costs/compensation. Pay for US surrogates is kept down by market forces due to the sheer number of low income women to prey on.

This. We don't want this here.

I am also sick of the patronising 'she hasn't got a mummy' crap too.

Not ALL 'mummies' are Heaven sent Angels you know!

And many 'daddies' are great parents too. As these 2 guys will be.

And please quit pretending it's not about them being gay. Course it is!

@Floorplan
I'm very disappointed that being against commercial surrogacy is seen as being gay-bashing.

That's because - on THIS thread - that is EXACTLY what it is.

And please quit pretending it's not about them being gay. Course it is!

No it isn't. Commercial surrogacy is unethical. I don't care who does it.

She might not want publicity. She chose to do it. Her right to choose they didn't force her .

I suppose the word 'chose' becomes a little more subjective if that woman is poor and has large amounts of money dangled in front of her.

Now obviously neither of us know the circumstances by which this came about, so maybe the above isn't true. But we know that they chose to do it in the US so money will have changed hands. And I wonder how many perfectly well off women who don't need money would be willing to go through it all for free. I mean surrogacy is quite a rare thing in the UK, because its done on an entirely altruistic basis.

But you are right, we don't know, and maybe she didn't want any publicity. I still think that perhaps a message could be sent that Tom and Dustin didn't just get a baby dropped through their window by a stork though, and that it did take the Labour (literally) of a female body to allow this to happen.

I mean @cosmiccanary

It's been around for many decades, so people need to quit all the pathetic faux outrage. It's laughable.

These women (surrogates) do it willingly. No-one forces them.

Considering it entirely from the child’s point of view:

Having intimate knowledge of the devestating affects adoption can have on a child’s sense of worth and self, I really can’t see how this would be any different for commercial surrogacy.

Even with two loving parents, the wondering about your biological mother would be present. In altruistic surrogacy it would be likely you would know the surrogate and the story of how and why. But with commercial surrogacy it would be completely different.

In her heart she really wanted to keep me? Does she think about me? Was the money worth giving me up? Is that how much I’m worth? If she didn’t need the money would she have kept me? What did that money buy that was worth more to her than me? Would my parents have still paid if there was something wrong with me? Do they ever regret buying me?

I think these are heartbreaking questions

Nothing to do with them being gay. I think Kim and Kanye were just as bad, or probably even worse actually because they already had 2 kids and had seen the life threatening risks of pregnancy first hand but were happy to visit that risk on another woman. There is much about the conduct of Tom and his husband that would be savaged were it not for the fact that they are a gay couple. But any criticism of them is shouted down as homophobia.

If it helps, I'm against prostitution too. Both are exploitation of women. I'm not homophobic and you need to stop calling people that with no evidence that is the case.

As I said, JESUS, this thread!

What a load of laughable parp some people are dishing out.

That's because - on THIS thread - that is EXACTLY what it is.

No it is not!!
Ut is a discussion about the ethics around commercial surrogacy.
Yes it is promted by a gay couples public announcement but this is not about their sexuality it is about them using money to buy a baby and rent a body.

So if they ‘willingly’ sold their 2-year-olds, littlemissdynamite, should we be cheering the system on? What about if they sold their kidneys or sold half of their livers? That all peachy too?

These women (surrogates) do it willingly. No-one forces them.

You sure about that?
You sure that there are no surrogates that do it because they are poor/coerced or forced?

Why not duck out and take some smelling salts then missdynamite if you're finding women expressing their feelings about a women's rights issue so hard? Clearly Feminist Chat is not the place for you.

I would be of the same opinion as most of the views on this thread if it were a heterosexual couple

Before I comment I want to get that across, and Lass summed it up.

It’s not about whether they’re same sex or not, it’s the fact that the woman who gave birth to the baby hasn’t even been mentioned (anonymously or otherwise). It’s the complete lack of acknowledgement for the woman who carried, laboured and birthed this child. That is why I am angry, becuase she has been erased from the picture completely but the fact is this child wouldn’t exist without her, so she at the very least deserves acknowledgement.

I’m adopted, my birth mother isn’t my Mum, but she is the woman who carried, laboured and birthed me and I wouldn’t ever dismiss that as if it’s nothing. I am here because of her, because of the choices she made and the courage she had to deliver me in an age where that caused her considerable personal suffering.

My Mum is the woman who raised me, loved me and kicked my arse (not literally) when it was needed, as Tom and Dustin will be to their child.

But there is a woman who is the reason I exist, and she cannot and should not be written out of the picture, because that is neither fair nor right.

The same applies to this new baby, so you see, them being gay has nothing to do with why I think what I think.

Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion about the ethics of commercial surrogacy littlemiss? Any comments on the links shared outlining some of the abusive contracts used? Or are you just going to continue to refer to feminists discussing the potential exploitation of women as 'laughable'?