The mother of Tom Daley's child

[Pratchet]

Congratulations on a healthy baby! Hope the birth went safely and that you are recovering well.

I just hate surrogacy in case you can't tell

@peakpants I'm not sure I can agree, though I can see why you might think that.
To me, the view of other people towards my situation when I was growing up was a rejection of my biological parents in favour of my adoptive ones.
I would be asked by people if I intended to make contact, and chastised if I suggested I might, as it might upset the woman who was "really" my mother - which in their view was clearly my adoptive mother.
Even my birth certificate tells me my adoptive mother is my "real" mother.
I wouldn't agree there is a focus on biology, but an erasing of it.
I think when I was younger there was big focus on "nurture" over "nature", and I do feel that is largely still the case.

It was all very strange - that's for sure. I have definitely been told a lot of opinions by various people over the years, very few have asked me for mine though!

Luna

I wanted to know how it felt to be adored unconditionally in that deep primal 'biological' way, the way I love my children who I gave birth to. I am deeply effected by the loss of my biological mother to this day.

Luna but actually I feel exactly the same as you and I did grow up with my biological parents. They didn't love me in a primal biological way sadly (not my dad at least) and even now I am still envious of people who have fathers who are not narcissistic bullies and I find father's day very difficult for instance. If you read the many stories on here of people who are NC with their biological family, you will see that I am not alone and that actually, it's all about being loving and caring and that biology doesn't mean everything. I truly believe you can love an adopted child just as primally as you can a biological child.

My mother was a loving mother though, my older siblings remember her. She was a great Mum. Of course not all biological mothers are good parents, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to want mine. Most people at least have a single memory of their mother. That gap in my life is enormous. I have a mum, she is great, I love her, but that doesn't stop the pain and loss of the woman who gave birth to me.

@gariguette I forget that the world has become so dystopian that "biological mother" no longer simply refers to the mother that birthed a child.
It seems even worse, if I'm honest. It's a third person to whom the child will suffer the trauma of detachment from, unless all 3 stay involved on a daily basis.
There is a plethora of evidence to suggest babies bond with their mother in significant ways in the womb.
There's also a lot of evidence to suggest that cortisol regulation is negatively affected - lifelong - by lack of skin to skin contact with the biological (birthing) mother in the first few months of life.

There is so much we don't know. Babies are designed/have evolved to develop best in a very particular set of circumstances. The whole point of evolution is to try and perfect that process for optimal success.
Fuck with nature at your peril.

I wanted to know how it felt to be adored unconditionally in that deep primal 'biological' way, the way I love my children who I gave birth to.

This is not a given though. My mother gave birth to me but definitely didn't feel like this about me.

I understand that you find the circumstances of your birth and upbringing painful though

Of course not all biological mothers are good parents, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to want mine. Most people at least have a single memory of their mother. That gap in my life is enormous. I have a mum, she is great, I love her, but that doesn't stop the pain and loss of the woman who gave birth to me.

Of course not. I am just pointing out that many people who had their biological parents still feel a pang of loss for what they could have had if their parents had been loving towards them. And I think bereavement and then being raised by a step-parent is different to e.g. adoption where the adoptive parents desperately want the child, whereas in a step-parent situation, it is more of a byproduct of the relationship you have with the child's parent. I definitely think people are capable of loving adopted children as much as biological ones- definitely.

I think gariguette post is one of the most blatant woman hating posts I have seen on MN that was allowed to stand.

It does however reassure me that my opinion that men buying womens bodies is only ever for the mens benefit was correct.

Vile man.

To me a trafficked baby, is one where the baby is taken without consent.

Such as women who are forced to give their child up because of being held. Similar to slavery but done in a baby farm type way

Fuck me that's a low bar...

I hope it is left to stand. It’s a nice reminder of why we still need feminism.

So do I Bes
In fact I think I will copy and paste it so it is not lost in the thread.

Gariguette

Honestly, having read these posts as a gay dad to two children born through surrogacy, all I can think is Thank Fucking God that my two sons will never be burdened by having an emotionally-abusive, self-pitying, self-centred, uninformed, unintelligent, moralising "mother" who thinks she has every right to ruin their lives just because she has a uterus.

I think gariguette post is one of the most blatant woman hating posts I have seen on MN that was allowed to stand.

Yes.

Idk. I am conflicted about commercial surrogacy but I do think there is a difference between a poor uneducated surrogate feeling forced into it and a woman who actively chooses to do it. I know a (het) couple who have a child conceived using a surrogate and he is extremely happy and well-adjusted. Maybe he will be traumatised as an adult, but at the moment he does not display any indication of this whatsoever.

I am not conflicted about adoption though. Nearly all children adopted in this country have been removed from their parents for extremely good reasons. Adoption offers them chances they would never have otherwise. It is easy to look at things with rose-tinted spectacles, but even if those adopted children grow up feeling disaffected by the adoption, this is nothing like the harm they would have suffered had they been permitted to remain with their birth families or if they had been left to languish in foster care. Growing up in abusive homes or being neglected causes harm that affects someone's life chances immeasurably, much more so than being an adopted person. Someone growing up in the care system has a very high chance of having their own children removed. Adoption is the best alternative in that case and it does often help break a destructive cycle.

To me a trafficked baby, is one where the baby is taken without consent.

Such as women who are forced to give their child up because of being held.

Where to draw the line here, though?

Aged 16 in a mother-and-baby home in the 1950s, having your baby physically taken from you = trafficking (presumably)

Aged 16 in a mother-and-baby home in the 1950s, being pressured into signing the adoption forms for your baby because you're told you have no choice = also trafficking?

Aged 16 in a mother-and-baby home, told it's entirely your choice, but knowing there's no social support for you as an unmarried teenage mother, the baby's father doesn't want to know and your parents will kick you out?

Aged 26 in an Indian baby factory, signing up voluntarily, but being desperately poor and knowing this is one of the few available ways you have to earn the money you need for your family?

Aged whatever in a country that allows commercial surrogacy, willingly signing the contract to hand over your baby at birth, then changing your mind after you hold the baby in your arms and being told nope, sorry, your decision's been made?

I think if you're exchanging people for money, it's trafficking.

@CosmicCanary

Given that women also pay surrogates to help them have a child, your statement is completely meaningless.

Brilliant post 53rd just absolutely nails it.

Tbh I feel the same. Commercial surrogacy is wrong full stop.

However your personal opinion which you shared on this thread does make me feel that men especially engage in paying for womens bodies purely for their own gain. I do not just mean surrogacy.

Thank you to all the women-supporting women who have joined this thread. My resolvebin strengthened and I am armed with new arguments. The practice of buying babies is unconscionable - someone used that word and it is exactly right.

Everyone has agency and empowerment these days don't they?

I cannot understand the empowerment of getting a baby through paid surrogacy.

For every post on here complaining about surrogacy in India: you will be happy to know that surrogacy for overseas parents was banned in India several years ago. All women involved have now returned to their lives of destitution and misery.

Let's cut the fancy talk: when we say commercial surrogacy, we mean buying babies.

Do you still want to talk about buying babies or do you want to justify buying babies by telling us that the mother of your child in particular is a lovely lady?

I hope you are campaigning for women's rights and equal pay in India then? As you are sooooo concerned.

I wanted to know what she was like, what her voice sounded like. I wanted to know how it felt to be adored unconditionally in that deep primal 'biological' way, the way I love my children who I gave birth to. I am deeply effected by the loss of my biological mother to this day.

This is very moving. I know so much how you would long for this and how having our own babies brings understanding of what was missing from our own infancy on a deep level.

Gariguette

Cos selling their newborns is a step up

Why is it women who always get the shitty end of the stick?

Oxfam....starving women and children? Yeah we can solve that by paying to fuck you.
Woman from India poor and destitute? Yeah we can solve that by you selling us your baby.

Wow women mean so little to you dont they?