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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Critical 'Lurkers'

471 replies

BadasIwannaB · 28/06/2018 19:36

I’ve been reading the Gender Critical threads on Mumsnet for a few months now and I’m ‘delurking’ to say THANK YOU! To all the intelligent, articulate gender critical feminists here - you are my absolute heroes, and you’re really giving me hope!

I’ve thought for a long time that many aspects of the supposedly right-on rhetoric about gender is deeply misogynist, and I was unsettled and annoyed at how much pressure there is on women not to challenge it, and how much supposed ‘feminists’ enforce that pressure. But for a long time I felt like I must be the only person who thought this, because I wasn’t seeing anyone speaking out, and on the v few occasions where I mentioned any of this to friends, it didn’t go down well. So it’s been hugely inspiring and reassuring to see that there’s this growing community here standing up for women against the bullshit. I’ve literally been reading the discussions here every day for the last few months, and it cheers me up so much! I’ve become such a fan of so many of you: LangCleg, Datun, Bowlofbabelfish, Ereshkigal, Angry Attack Kittens, I could go on and on…

So I started wondering, how many people like me are there reading these threads and cheering silently from the sidelines? I’m hoping there are lots of us. I think it’s easy to think we’re a tiny minority because of all the fear surrounding joining the discussion, but maybe if we all delurked we’d see that that’s not the case.

So any other lurkers wanna delurk?

OP posts:
allycattt · 15/08/2018 01:02

sorry my last post should have said, 'what makes them a woman if they have physically male bodies' again thanks for the links

R0wantrees · 15/08/2018 01:13

There's also a lot of information on Woamns Place UK site including videos of the speeches made at their meetings:
womansplaceuk.org/

Legal and policy information on Fairplay for Women:
fairplayforwomen.com/

Let a Woman Speak:
www.letawomanspeak.org/

R0wantrees · 15/08/2018 01:25

This is an amazing piece of work by heresyandwitchcraft with so much information collated in one place:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

allycattt · 15/08/2018 02:17

thank you for the info

NotWeavingButDarning · 15/08/2018 02:38

I mostly lurk (although have posted occasionally) but I'm very much here and totally in support.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 15/08/2018 04:36

Prawnofthepatriarchy, are you me?

One of the things I love about this board is the sense I have that many of us are older women, (define that as you will).

The voices of older women are so devalued in society as a whole, that we miss out on learning from our "tribal elders".

Datun · 15/08/2018 12:05

Is it true 90% keep their male genitalia? surely not, what makes them a woman if they have physically female bodies, I don't get it?

You are now joining the leagues of hundreds and hundreds of women whose jaws are all hitting the floor at the same time.

UndercoverGC · 15/08/2018 19:29

Urgh. Stuck very tip of my nose cautiously over the parapet for the first time today.
Now being massively flamed. Lost several friends, at risk of being kicked out of wider social circle.
I hadn't expected to burn all bridges quite so hard at this point.
Curled up on the sofa shaking and crying.

I can't say that things never happen, when they've happened to me.

I need a hug, but I'm not sure even my partner will 'get it', and absolutely nobody else I know will side with me. Even if they agree they wouldn't dare to.

How do I deal with the emotional side of this? I feel so bloody lonely and scared.

Gncq · 15/08/2018 19:41

UndercoverGC
That sounds terrible.
I can only assime your circle of friends must be young people?
Seriously, they will grow put of it. In the meanwhile, get new friends maybe?

I can't believe people will actively eject others from their social circle for stating facts of truth.

Gncq · 15/08/2018 19:42

Have you really "lost several friends" or is it just you're taking a disagreement of point to heart?

Ereshkigal · 15/08/2018 19:43

Virtual hug. I'm sorry Thanks

This ideology is all about control. Once you see it you can't go back.

Ereshkigal · 15/08/2018 19:46

I've had two disagreements from FB over this. One with a friend and one with a younger cousin. I didn't back down either time so we just agreed not to talk about it. All fine now. My friends are mostly sensible but I don't do much politics on FB in general. I've discussed with a few younger male colleagues and they are a bit baffled but mostly agree with me.

Ereshkigal · 15/08/2018 19:47

But I know people do lose friends over this.

heresyandwitchcraft · 15/08/2018 19:52

UndercoverGC
My heart breaks for you. I am so sorry you're going through this. It's awful to feel lonely and unsupported. I know it's not the same as a real-life hug and cup of tea, but here is the closest substitute I can offer: Bear Brew Flowers. You are not alone.

UndercoverGC · 15/08/2018 20:10

I wrote a long post, then deleted it. I have known a lot of the more extreme TRAs for a very long time. I am genuinely scared of physical violence just for posting on here. They know very well where I live and how to find me.

Helen Steel was a hero of mine, when I was young and learning about the world for myself for the first time. She was a hero to a lot of the people I know at the same time. This was when the McLibel case was going on. I hoped I'd have the guts to do something like that one day, to fearlessly take on the world the way Helen Steel did.

I've seen what the TRAs have done to Helen Steel, how they talk about her, the threats they make when the outside world isn't listening. It gets a lot worse than Twitter, and you've seen how bad Twitter gets. The same people will be coming for me next, shouting TERF too loudly to hear anything I might say, being convinced I am a literal Nazi doing literal violence who literally wants to exterminate all trans people, so anythign is justified.

heresyandwitchcraft · 15/08/2018 20:43

That sounds terrifying. Nobody should be worried about violence just for posting on a parenting forum online. If you are getting threats or worried about specific people, please make sure you report these to the authorities. All I can advise is to keep yourself as safe as you can. And send you some more virtual hugs.

UndercoverGC · 15/08/2018 20:50

Thanks so much for the support. You lot are keeping me going.
Not particularly young, well into our thirties. But early adopters and in some cases leaders of what's going on now.

I grew up in a very abusive environment. Then in early adulthood I found people who were doing genuinely good things, lots of it nothing to do with trans, some of it the sort of things most people on here would agree with, like supporting LGBT+ refugees. But there was always the trans stuff going on too. That was fine, I want trans people to be able to get on with their lives, nobody should be getting hassled for the way they dress.
It ratcheted up slowly. I was told that how I understood myself, my body, my life, was all wrong. I should use the labels they gave me, not talk about the way I felt. I was used to that in a lot of different contexts. I could work on other things, and keep my head down, stay out of trouble, try to ignore what worried me.

The last few years, too much has happened. The same people who told me to shut up about my body and how I felt about it and how it was the cause of so much abuse are now rewriting the rules for everyone in the UK, not just my social bubble.

They think that they are the only ones who are important. They talk about intersectionality, and consultation, and community support, and what they mean is 'I talked to a bunch of my mates who I am sure agree with me'. They even call trans people who disagree 'scum' and much worse. They don't think about people who aren't like them, including very marginalised people. Language has to change so fast that everyone is transphobic scum for using the words they themselves taught a few weeks ago. Then they demand changes which will do serious damage to people who can't use English the way they do, who can't weaponise academic priviledge, and they never, ever, compromise.

This isn't most trans people. Amongst themselves, they don't even want to represent most trans people, except that publically they need to claim to be the voice of all trans people for political power, and anyone who they call 'transphobic' then is seen as out to literally kill all trans people.

They can't compromise, or negotiate. Personal purity is the absolute priority. You are either with them or against them. In-group or out-group. Completely onside, or 'die cis scum'. Nuance and dialogue cannot exist, because they've spent so long being completely certain of their own rightness.

There will be people reading this from the extreme TRA side who recognise who I am, because they watch this place.
To them - hello. Talk to me, please. Maybe I'm another cis person who doesn't 'get it' and it's not worth your time to educate me, but I've been trying and listening for so long. You know the work I do and the things I care about, and I want a world which works for trans people and the people I work with, and the people who are both.

MyOwnShed · 15/08/2018 20:57

Undercover that sounds really rather scary.

I tend to lurk and post on here occasionally.

I also lurk in Twitter, posting about other completely unrelated issues but then recently have been reporting the violence against women posts. I've had four deleted on the past two days and no one knows it's me to block me.

I have one friend I'll talk loosely about this in real life with, she works in academia and has kept her head below the parapet for fear of getting tangled in all kinds of crazy.

heresyandwitchcraft · 15/08/2018 22:06

UndercoverGC Flowers What you describe sounds like a real ordeal. I can only imagine what you're going through at the moment. It devastates me (and also makes me absolutely livid), that what sounds like simple philosophical disagreements with extreme trans activists have resulted in such a climate of terror. You are courageous for taking a stand and "sticking the tip of your nose" above the parapet. Nobody can control your thoughts or beliefs, certainly not using coercion. This is crazy-making. Please take care of yourself, because you are important and valued.

PronounIsWitch · 16/08/2018 09:27

Just registered to delurk.

I’m GC on Twitter, but that stemmed from lurking here since the beginning of 2017.
I’m heartened by the traction of the grass roots campaigns and how self-Id impacts and the tactics of TRAs are more widely known (though a long way to go).
Thank you to the wonderful posters here for their tenacity, intelligence and humour.

MrsBouvier · 16/08/2018 09:48

I'm a lurker too, trying to be braver.
I am so grateful to you ladies for saying what I couldn't articulate. Bravo!

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