Schoolgirls successfully challenge imposition of all gender neutral toilets

[enoughisenoughtoday]

Today's Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/genderneutral-toilets-my-daughter-was-called-selfish-for-wanting-girlsonly-loos-at-school-cwth60b2c?shareToken=9fab5475d7d35b0766e60529518947cc

This is what happens when people have to listen to girls (and women. And the comments are good.

This is what happens when girls are free to speak and not silenced by roars of 'transphobe' and 'bigot' . They stand up for their rights to privacy, safety and dignity .

Well done the girl and her supportive family.

Though it's disappointing that the school implemented unisex toilets without consultation, then made the girls jump through hoops to get single sex loos reimplemented. The adult staff of that school may be teaching the students, but it appears that they know fuck all about the wants and needs of the majority of young people

Good girl!

I do agree about the disabled loos though. They mustn’t be appropriated in this either. There’s poor enough provision for disabled changing/toilets etc.

If a school has resources to unisex everything they have resources to ADD a few unisex single occupancy loos as well as jeep disabled provision.

I've spoken to the Police on 101 tonight. If you have little girls in a changing room you can calmly and politely and in private ask a person who presents opposite to their birth sex to leave. If they refuse phone 999 to prevent a breach of the peace.

Should have added: Police say, safeguarding first - always.

Well done this girl. Also The Times comments are pretty much all in agreement and praising her too.

Well done to this girl and her mum. She’s a future world changer

spontaneous
The police and the rest of us working in public services / education know that it is always safeguarding first. This is the first time to my knowledge a group have ever lobbied so determinedly to have safeguarding principles for children set aside - the only exception was a group in the 1970s / 80s that didn't last long once their unhealthy interest in children was exposed.

However, I'm sure it won't be long before one of our resident "experts" pops up to tell us how wrong the police (and the rest of us) are.

Oh probably. I would take the word of the Police over a bridge dweller any day of the week.

If someone of the opposite sex is in a space where children are likely to be in an intimate situation, they will be removed if they don't leave themselves. I've had that on the phone this evening from the Police. It really is that simple.

This is the first time to my knowledge a group have ever lobbied so determinedly to have safeguarding principles for children set aside

And yet nobody is asking who is doing this. And why they are doing this. And who is funding this.

So proud of mom and daughter for standing up to the transbullies.

Girls know why males can't be trusted, even at that age.

Good for her and her fellow female students! The implementation sounds a lot more sensible and respectful than blanket changes or use of the accessible (quoted in the article disabled) toilets. Wtf. Both single sex and disability is protected under the Equality Act so it’s disgusting that accessible loos are being used as trans changing facilities / toilet.

I read about the blanket changes in Scotland on another thread. I hope school girls up there campaign hard for their rights too.

enoughisenough
Are you talking about the Pedophile Information Exchange?

Thank goodness the government saw sense then. And now.

'Police say, safeguarding first - always.'

I would bloody well hope so too! Good to have it confirmed

Bloody brilliant.

Oh wow.... is the tide turning?

Do I dare hope??? The more common-sense articles of ordinary people's thoughts like this appear - of everyday heroes enabling those without a voice to be heard, the better.... So great that her daughter has learnt about the power of activism so young (but shocking that her school went unisex wholesale, without thinking of the challenges of pubescent girls).

I agree that disabled loos should not be co-opted - there is very poor provision already. I suppose the school's thinking was that the disabled loo is "gender neutral" already - as it's not common to see single sex disabled loos. However I agree with the comments saying that an additional loo or two for "everyone" should have been added, rather than putting disabled students to the bottom of the priority list.

• According to the Tavistock Centre, they received 2,016 child referrals in 2016-17. There were 8.67m school-age children in education in England in 2017*

• According to the Govt statistics on SEN in 2017, those with visual, multi-sensory and physical disabilities comprised 17,680 of the school-aged children population in England. There were 24,281 schools in England**

• Based on the above, that equates to 0.7 disabled children per school and 0.1 trans children per school.

There's some fairly blunt instrument maths (including assuming all of the Tavistock referrals were for children domiciled in England) and assumptions going on - but hopefully this still serves to illustrate that there are more disabled children in the school population than those who identify as trans. I've based "identifying" as being sufficiently convinced that they are seeking to genuinely explore transition (by way of medical referral), on the basis that not seeking a medical intervention would not support the argument of being "in danger" by using the toilets aligned to their natal sex.

Therefore on the basis that the school-age trans population is a tiny fraction of the children with disabilities who would have cause to need a disabled loo because they wouldn't be able to use an ordinary one, it's not fair or appropriate to co-opt disabled toilets for gender equality ideology. The numbers on disabilities also don't take into account hidden disabilities such as children with ASD who may also need to use disabled toilets.

*Gov.uk website - stats from 2017
** This figure is slightly skewed as it includes nursery schools, where it would be reasonable to assume that there would be no need for trans-inclusive provision for children.

spontaneousgiventime Thank you on behalf of my little granddaughter for finding that out. And for your persistence on another thread.
NEVER piss off a gran!

"Based on the above, that equates to 0.7 disabled children per school and 0.1 trans children per school."

This is why I think y'all are over reacting a little on the transgender kids 'taking over' disabled toilets.

At many schools there are disabled accessible toilets and NO disabled kids. They're built in advance in preparation for when a disabled kid does come through the school but are not actually needed regularly for their intended use. On your statistics a bit over half of all schools have a kid with a significant disability.

At large schools which have many disabled kids there would likely be several accessible toilets (and if not, we need to build them!)

There are more and more kids identifying as queer, non-binary, or neutral, but the number who are identifying as transgender to the extent that they demand access to seperate facilities remains pretty small, so small that only 1 in 10 schools has even one student.

In schools where there aren't disabled kids, or where there are plenty of disabled accessible facilities, is there really harm in allowing the transgender child to use them too?

In cases where there are many transgender kids and few facilities, such that allowing those kids to use the disabled stall is likely to disadvantage kids with genuine disabilities, other options could be made available for the trans kids, i.e. the staff toilet or a portable toilet could be hired temporarily until an extra stall can be built.

Obviously the needs of the kids those facilities are built for (girls, and disabled kids) should be prioritized, but at the same time you could for example allow a transgender student to use the girls change rooms AFTER the girls have left without compromising anyone's rights. You could let them use a disabled neutral stall AFTER the kid with a genuine disability is finished without harm too. Or use the other disabled neutral stall on a campus which has more than one toilet block.

Long term we should build additional sex neutral single stalls but I think this whole transgender thing is going to be a passing fad that a decade from now will seem ridiculous, so we should make them accessible too so that they will still be useful. So that still means you would have transkids using disabled/neutral accessible stalls just that there would be more of them.

One male bodied person in the female toilets renders them unisex. Small numbers can have a aignificant impact. Even the idea that there could be a male bodied person in the toilet will be enough for some girls to self exclude.

you could for example allow a transgender student to use the girls change rooms AFTER the girls have left

Have you read the Scottish schools guidance? It recommends that it is girls (that object to having a transgirl in their changing room) who should wait and get changed AFTER the transgender young person is done.

You are right, there are many work around involving the creation of third spaces, which happen to also be the recommendations in the Technical Guidance for Schools in Scotland (guidance to the provisions in the EqA2010 and published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)
I quote;

A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a transgender young person and insists that the pupil use the boys changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space

In other words the EHRC do not even entertain the idea that the trans young person would be in with the girls in their changing room.

Great article. It's written in a very neutral tone that you'd have to pretty hardline to disagree with - this is exactly the kind of stuff we want out there - calm, sensible explanation of why this is a problem that really can't be accused of transphobia (at least by anyone rational ...)

What a fantastic girl. Good on her.

I note that the girls' main objection - correctly IMO - was to boys taking unisex opportunities to harass girls. Not to a tiny number of dysphoric trans pupils needing accommodation.

I can imagine that disabled people would support the use off disabled toilets if it was limited to people with a diagnosed MH condition that prevented them using toilets of their sex. But of course it won't be. So disabled toilets are not the solution. It's not helpful for schools to create a sense of entitlement to disabled facilities in kids who are not disabled.

Well done, that girl.

Slightly OT, but what school sports does a transgender pupil take part in? Are the girls who are transitioning compelled to do rugby or football like the male students or (like the changing facilities) are they given a free pass and allowed to do what they're 'comfortable' with? I don't remember joining in team sports being optional in my day, but maybe things have changed.

I do not like the idea of gender neutral toilets and would not use them unless they are floor to ceiling walls/doors.

Cubicles - no way.

The problem is that I am a middle class, assertive woman and, if this becomes endemic, women like me can ‘buy our way out’ by lobbying service providers, by using private sports clubs and/or private medicine.

It will affect poorer or more vulnerable women the most.