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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article on the side-effects of Lupron

91 replies

ResistanceIsNecessary · 26/06/2018 08:56

Mayday 4 Women shared this. Whilst its use for transitioning is not mentioned, it is known to be widely used to delay puberty as part of the transitioning process.

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Worth reading and absolutely raises questions about the long term implications and safety associated with Lupron. This suggests that "watch and wait" would be prudent for prepubescent children who identify as trans.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 26/06/2018 13:08

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/XZjhcLhQW08Ylw5b0p9xgH/gender-dysphoria-transgender

Young people who are distressed because their bodies are developing during puberty can be given treatment to stop these changes. The relief this provides helps them to make better judgements about how they want to live their lives as adults. If they wish, they can stop taking the medication at any time. It is safe, and its effects are reversible

NatLuc · 26/06/2018 13:09

Bowlofbabelfish - To stay with your SSRI analogy, I think it is a bit unfair to say that 'oh well all drugs of a class have the same mechanism of work so therefore the same side effects'.

I was originally placed on Citalopram at University whilst trying to cure myself of being trans. Thinking it was just my depression, that getting rid of lifelong depression would make it go away.

Citalopram gave me heart palpitations which I uncomfortably experienced when I tried to go on my normal 12K run. But I had to stop the running due to other side effects of the Citalopram. So once they subsided and I could run again, this is when I discovered the palpitations.

I went to the doctor, he pulled me off the Citalopram immediately and following a cardiogram was put on to Sertraline. Which gave me the same 'other' side effects I mentioned but without the palpitations.

I think Snappity is right to point out that it is scaremongering a bit. Just because someone might react badly to one drug in a class does not mean they will react the same way to them all. Nor does it mean that a given side effect is as prevalent with the other drugs in the same class.

badgirlswatchagonnado · 26/06/2018 13:12

Just because someone might react badly to one drug in a class does not mean they will react the same way to them all. Nor does it mean that a given side effect is as prevalent with the other drugs in the same class.

It would be great to have the scientific studies to prove this, especially when these drugs are given off-licence to children, don't you think?

ProfessionalBarren · 26/06/2018 13:15

Exactly, hypothesising about mechanism etc isn’t good enough when they’re being given to children and touted as harmless. The studies must be done.

enoughisenoughtoday · 26/06/2018 13:15

People actually defending medical experimentation on children / young people. Angry Off label drugs, no research, no idea of the long term outcomes and children / young people below the age of consent taking these drugs.
Yet here they are - on a board for feminists / women - arguing with us that this is OK.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 26/06/2018 13:16

I disagree that it's scaremongering. These GnRH analog class drugs are being used off label, for a purpose that hasn't been tested or monitored for long term outcomes.

The article already talks about the issue of Lupron being used for precious puberty and height attainment - it didn't mention the common usage for delaying puberty as part of transitioning treatment. Which is increasingly being promoted as a viable option for children who identify as trans.

I'm struggling to believe that anyone could remain wilfully blind to the dangers of giving children extremely powerful drugs, for untested and unlicensed use, with known side-effects which can be permanent and irreversible. Does "informed consent" mean nothing?

OP posts:
ResistanceIsNecessary · 26/06/2018 13:20

The side effects that are known are listed here, because they were identified during the clinical trials in order to gain approval for the drug.

Note that there is a specific contraindication for children with MH issues as it can exacerbate them. Note also for adult men and women that it can cause bone thinning which "may not be reversible" - exactly what the article in my OP is talking about.

OP posts:
ResistanceIsNecessary · 26/06/2018 13:22

Note that there are no long term side-effects at this time for children prescribed the drug to delay puberty because this usage hasn't been tracked.

Nobody knows what the potential health outcomes are for children who are currently being prescribed Lupron (or similar drugs). How the bloody hell is it scaremongering to point out that it's pretty worrying that parents are being encouraged into this?

OP posts:
ProfessionalBarren · 26/06/2018 13:28

Adults females are often limited to 6 months of lupron at a time because of its effects on bone density. Are such limits being imposed on children, whose trajectory of bone growth is going to be different? If not how can we know if the effects are the same in children, less severe or somehow much worse - in which case we’d be storing up a cohort of people with significant health vulnerabilities in later years. There’s a reason drug use is carefully monitored and tracked, this is it.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/06/2018 13:32

'oh well all drugs of a class have the same mechanism of work so therefore the same side effects'.

That’s not what I’m saying though.

What you experienced are fairly well defined side effects that vary within class. Citalopram for example is well known as one of the ‘jittery’ SSRIs. Brixism amd palpitations are fairly common. Palpitations with no cardiac effects seen on an ECG would not be classed as a serious side effect.

If you’d experienced serotonin toxicity, you’d be off the entire class.

What I’m saying is that there are minor differences within a class - this is exactly what you’ve experienced actually. The class of drugs works on the same pathways, however, and so while there will be minor differences in side effects (which is what you’ve experienced) the core mechanism remains the same.

If you took penicillin and had an allergic reaction you wouldnt routinely be given ANY of the penicillin type drugs.

To say Lupron might be bad but triptorelin is fine is simply not true. These drugs are incredibly powerful we have no long term follow up data on them And they are being investigated for serious, irreversible effects.

There is no way in hell I would allow a child of mine to go on these drugs for any reason at all. I say that as someone familiar with drug development, drug safety and adverse event reporting. No. Way. In. hell.

They are also, as resistance actively contraindicated in mental health conditions.

This is going to be a huge scandal.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/06/2018 13:32

Bruxism sorry, typo - tooth and jaw grinding.

spontaneousgiventime · 26/06/2018 13:37

This is not scaremongering. When one of my DC was a teenager they were refused anti depressants after their dad died. Yet at the same age would have been on puberty blockers for years. Lupron is an off label cancer drug given to kids. Stop fucking minimising cos it suits your agenda. These are children who know no better.

NatLuc · 26/06/2018 15:53

spontaneousgiventime It is not that easy to get blockers though. They aren't passed out like candy. Consistent, Persistent and Insistent. Not all trans children will meet the bar to be warranted such intervention.

Yes these are powerful drugs and more research needs to be done. - Please do not take this to mean that I am condoning experimenting on children. I am not. I am sure there are other non sacrificial methods that can be used to better understand the long term effects? I do not know anything about how drugs are screened and tested before being made available or how they might be further tested when under investigation.

What has happened to these individuals is awful. There is no denying that. But with all drugs there is a change of things going wrong.. How many people have these drugs helped on the flip side?

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/06/2018 16:04

They shouldn’t be passed out at all. they are being used off label, in an uncontrolled way, with no justification in terms of risk : benefit. There is going to be a huge population who suffer awful effects from this down the line - it’s going to be a scandal of epic proportions.

I am a scientist and I now work in drug trials - there is absolutely no way that we could dose a child with these drugs. None. Absolutely none. Or anything even close to the side effects they have. No ethics committee in the world would do it, and I personally would refuse to work on such a trial (which wouldn’t happen anyway , due to the rules on testing stuff on kids.)

It’s so hard to include children in trials as it is - I’ve run a couple of paediatric trials and the rules are rightly incredibly strict. And those were both for paediatric cancer indications, so kids who would probably die unless treated.

To give a healthy child these drugs is just mind boggling to me. This entire population of children are taking part in an experiment with no ethics oversight, and no medical oversight.

The rules for drug research were drawn up in the wake of some horrific human rights abuses - the neuremberg trials started the process and it was refined with things like thalidomide, and tunguskee. I would encourage you to read up on the sort of stuff that happened to make these rules necessary- be warned, it’s disturbing.

Like our child safeguarding framework, every one of those pedantic, strict rules was brought in because someone did something awful to another human being.

To see that ethical framework discarded like this makes me feel very disturbed indeed. I feel like I’m shouting into the void, watching a terrible accident happening in slow motion and unable to do anything about it.

spontaneousgiventime · 26/06/2018 16:05

NatLuc Please don't patronise me, I don't appreciate it.

There are Doctors out there including web Doctors who do hand these out, as I'm sure you know full well.

Even if one child is effected by the horrific effects of this medication, that's one child too many!

LangCleg · 26/06/2018 16:09

There are about 1,000 children in the UK on these drugs. Orders of magnitude more in the US and Canada. We could be talking six figures of children. CHILDREN. Off label, with known serious side effects and possibly many more unknown because research is political and it's not being done.

Anybody arguing that this is a good state of affairs needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/06/2018 16:10

But with all drugs there is a change of things going wrong.

There is. But you don’t release a drug to market until you’ve defined those risks as best you can and proven that either the drug is beneficial or equivalent to a competitor. That’s not been done for these drugs in puberty blocking for gender identity querying.
So when you open your pack of anything from the pharmacy you’ll see the pack insert and that will have all those on. You’ll also see on some drugs a ‘black box’ warning - these are risks of serious harm.

Humans can be allergic to or have reactions to almost anything - but to use a drug this powerful on children isn’t like giving someone penicillin despite the fact that a few percent are allergic, it’s totally unknown risks, with no medical oversight.

I just cannot believe it’s happening. It wouldn’t happen in any other field. It’s so so disturbing.

LangCleg · 26/06/2018 16:11

Like our child safeguarding framework, every one of those pedantic, strict rules was brought in because someone did something awful to another human being.

To see that ethical framework discarded like this makes me feel very disturbed indeed. I feel like I’m shouting into the void, watching a terrible accident happening in slow motion and unable to do anything about it.

This.

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2018 16:12

I've said before, but I take spironolactone to treat acne - it's an anti-androgen which can be used for men who wish to undergo female hormone therapy. It is relatively safe (for women, at least) when used under direction - severe side-effects include renal problems, but the most common is needing to wee a lot as it's an diuretic.

Anyway, I always smile when I read accounts of people who have just started on this drug, who are elated to have begun their treatment. Obviously I can understand this reaction - but I also had a massive surge when I took it. DH thought that I had gone on Prozac or something, I literally bounced out of bed, full of energy and feeling incredibly happy.

Point is, there isn't enough research in the new use of these drugs. I don't understand why people actually oppose proper medical records being kept so that studies can be done in the future to understand the optimal drug therapies and which to avoid like the plague

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2018 16:16

I googled "buy puberty blockers" to see how quickly I could find a site that would sell them to me.

Answer - a matter of minutes

Plus this gem of a site: transit.org.uk/children.html

Warning: not good for blood pressure (gems inlcude telling parents it's their "moral duty" not to allow their trans child to go through natural puberty and the appeal for funds "to help our founder get her vagina"...)

spontaneousgiventime · 26/06/2018 16:17

Makes my fucking blood boil when people come here with no clue what they are talking about or worse, do know and ply their propaganda that these drugs are fine for children. THEY ARE NOT

LangCleg · 26/06/2018 16:19

Plus this gem of a site: transit.org.uk/children.html

OMFG. Every time I think I reach a peak of shock, something else shows up. How is this website even allowed to exist?

Does anybody know, realistically, how many minor children in the UK might be taking puberty blockers outwith medical supervision?

I just want to cry.

spontaneousgiventime · 26/06/2018 16:22

See this transit.org.uk/children.html @NatLuc ? Wanna retract your false statement?

spontaneousgiventime · 26/06/2018 16:23

Or, answer my question.

Should you, with the 'wrong plumbing' be allowed into a changing room with my naked six year old granddaughter?

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2018 17:16

I just want to cry.

Me too, Lang, me too Sad

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