What happened before hormone treatment and surgery were available?

[TimeLady]

It's just occurred to me that transgender treatment programmes are a relatively recent phenomenon. Homosexuality has long been a natural part of human behaviour as no medical intervention is required. But the whole turning yourself physically into a representation of the opposite sex is relatively new in human terms, and would be impossible without modern medical treatment. You'd simply have people wearing clothes that are perceived as being of the opposite sex.....and nothing wrong with that.

Long hair, padded bras, makeup?

Interesting question.

One French King was close in age to his brother, the younger brother was apparently dressed in what was considered feminine clothing from childhood and it carried on into adulthood.

The French King presenting masculine wore a long hair wig and high heeled shoes.

Macaroni, trends or fashion of the time changes.

I think you have answered your own question.

Children (male and female) in the past were in dresses for a large part of childhood because there wasn't the modern zipper or means to disrobe quickly when toilet training. This often means it can be hard to tell in pictures or photographs the sex of a child but the tip is to look at the hair. Side parting for boy, middle parting for girl.

You can't really look at past clothing trends and styles and paste a modern meaning on them. In past the styles of upper-class clothing for men was ornate and what we'd consider rather feminine today. But it wasn't, it was simply the convention at the time. Also in some eras everyone wore some form of makeup, other times it was effectively banned (or at least you'd be looked down on as a floozy for wearing it.

Otherwise people cross-dressed for various reasons, we know of many examples of women doing so because they were prevented from education and work and needed to do so to support themselves and their families. It was also common in acting as well. Non-conforming dress was common in lesbian and gay communities, and some countries outlawed men wearing women's clothing to try and police gay men (my country wasn't one of them interestingly enough, but the police tried that once and arrested a gay man and tried and failed to prosecute them). We can still find around some surviving images of this, obviously some people flouted the rules where they could.

Reddwolff

They are filming a drama series at the moment about one such gender non conforming lesbian called anne lister. If anyone hasnt heard of her she was amazing - absolutely worth five minutes of your life to google her. I am really worried that they are going to posthumously trans her, though.

Before hormone and surgical transition was available some people were transvestites.

Sorry, just realised the phrase 'gender non conforming lesbian' is a tautology!

Norther
Sorry, just realised the phrase 'gender non conforming lesbian' is a tautology
No need to apologise ... you were right first time. Gender Identity and sexuality are two completely different things.

I suppose what I'm saying is that even a hundred years ago, before advances in hormone treatment and surgery, the phrase ' transwomen are women' wouldn't have existed; similarly transmen couldn't have grown beards. It's being bandied around in some quarters as the 'truth' today, but without medical intervention - breast implants, vaginoplasty etc. it wouldn't be an issue.

What happens to the body if hormone treatment is stopped? Does it revert back to biological type?

Well, looking at for eg Hijra now, I'd suppose that they were castrated - at least in some societies

My personal opinion is that although there have always been people like the hijra etc, there is in evidence now a completely new category of men for whom this is nothing to do with feeling like a woman (whatever that means) but purely of control of women: the control of individual women (like a spouse or colleagues); and the control of women in general (by occupying their spaces and defining what can and can't be said). I think the pleasure some derive from controlling and abusing women is so seductive that they begin to desire experiencing it for themselves. I think that is why so many are into BDSM. I am not saying that they are all conscious of their actions, just that those thoughts are in their psyche somewhere.

And some just seem to jump on the bandwagon for a laugh, it seems.

I was listening to a podcast about this woman today. The whole story is fascinating.

www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/he-was-a-she-but-a-killer-20120218-1tfpu.html

Damnthat
the phrase 'gender non conforming lesbian' is a tautology
This is true. All lesbians are gender non conforming. A woman who conformed to gender norms would be attracted to men and therefore not a lesbian.

Gender Identity and sexuality are two completely different things.
And gender non conformity is different again. Being gender non conforming does not mean that you have a 'gender identity'.

The hijra are interesting case, aren't they, being recognised as a third gender? No 'hijra are women' enshrined in law there. Hijra are hijra.

Random thought: Presumably hijra is not a verboten word on Mumsnet? It's a legal definition in much of South East Asia after all.....

hijra

^noun
(in South Asia) a person whose birth sex is male but who identifies as female or as neither male nor female.^

This is true. All lesbians are gender non conforming. A woman who conformed to gender norms would be attracted to men and therefore not a lesbian.

I think many lesbians would disagree with your view that being straight is a norm but being a lesbian isn't

It hadn't occurred to me that some people may consider being compared to a legal third gender as offensive - but you're right, who's to know what any individual person may consider beyond the pale... 😬

Oh, unless it's someone being offended by the phrase "beyond the pale" of course - then it's up to the individual and not policed as a rule.

What happens to the body if hormone treatment is stopped? Does it revert back to biological type?

Sadly it does not, as many female detransitioners have found. When women take testosterone, their voice breaks - stopping the testosterone will not reverse this, and they are left with a permanently male sounding voice. The facial hair growth and male pattern baldness may also be permanent.

East European female athletes who took testosterone in the 70s and 80s (often they didn't know what they were taking and thought they were 'vitamins') had permanent changes to their bodies, and at least one (Andreas Krieger, formerly Heidi), decided to become a transman because of the irreversible results of taking testosterone.

I think many lesbians would disagree with your view that being straight is a norm but being a lesbian isn't

Don't twist my words, Snappity. I didn't say "being straight is a norm but being a lesbian isn't". I said "gender norm". Perhaps I could have phrased it better as "gender stereotype".

Stereotypes for women include (amongst many other things):
Wearing makeup, wearing high heels, liking shopping for clothes, being attracted to men, disliking football, and so on.

Not conforming to any of those things makes you gender non conforming to some degree. But a lesbian is no more abnormal than a woman who likes football or who never wears makeup.

Ah if only there was a word for heterosexual being considered "the norm". Heteronormative, perhaps...?

"What happened before hormone treatment and surgery were available?"

Hormone treatment and surgery weren't available to me as a child or as a young adult. I was constantly unhappy and given that being trans is not about clothes, dressing in feminine clothes had very little effect.

However, eventually, I got to transition, and now I am happier than I ever knew a person could be. Which is a good thing, yes?

So hooray for medical science which has made it possible for trans people to achieve relief from their gender dysphoria, and hooray for all the other medical advances that have allowed people to live with medical conditions happily rather than suffering the way they did before the treatment was available.

It is fascinating what a placebo effect that surgery has on people. I mean it's not actually "treating" a condition any more than bleeding or leeching ever was.

It is abusive however, that women and girls are also used unwillingly, as a placebo to treat the condition..

I think many lesbians would disagree with your view that being straight is a norm but being a lesbian isn't

I don’t think that’s what was meant. Being a lesbian is normal, it is ‘a norm’ in the sense that it’s normal. It is not ‘the norm’ in the sense that it’s not the majority sexual orientation. ‘The norm’ usually means the most common state.

A norm and the norm mean different things. To say something is not the norm has no value judgement. It’s not the norm to be a genius, amazing at chess or incredibly beautiful, but none of those things are ‘abnormal’ or wrong.

Things like breast binders have, sadly, been around for a very long time

I would guess it would be harder to "pass" where everyone knows you and your family, and you have very little privacy (families of ten living in a two up, two down type thing). Presumably a move away to somewhere completely new would be in order

I suppose you could say interfering with normal sex development has a long history. Eunuchs in harems and sold as slaves for higher price, boy sopranos as well as girls and FGM etc. But none of these were elective.