What happened before hormone treatment and surgery were available?

[TimeLady]

It's just occurred to me that transgender treatment programmes are a relatively recent phenomenon. Homosexuality has long been a natural part of human behaviour as no medical intervention is required. But the whole turning yourself physically into a representation of the opposite sex is relatively new in human terms, and would be impossible without modern medical treatment. You'd simply have people wearing clothes that are perceived as being of the opposite sex.....and nothing wrong with that.

What happened? Most people got a grip and got on with their lives instead of having tantrums. I was there.

Interesting question posted about the case of the Scottish lord 1935 and there are many other examples in history of trans people who lived there whole lives and were only. Found to be trans on there death there are many interesting stories around them if you look for them.

It's a strange question. It's a bit like asking what people did before laser eye surgery... they wore glasses, or before glasses...they lived with visual impairment. Same goes for any illness, just because it didn't have a name or a cure doesn't mean it didn't exist.
I don't know if surgery or hormones is a cure, only people that have been through it can answer that.

Lots of women dressed as men in order to escape poverty, a life of child rearing and to fulfil their educational aspirations. Single women living together was not considered strange. There were many institutions throughout Europe, well known, that took single women in under the guise of religion. Some of these women are now seen as trans. Shameful redesigning of history, with no substance to it whatsoever and only a 21st century gloss on it.

The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft provided gender reassignment surgery in the 30's, before it was destroyed by the Nazi's. Synthetic Estrogen was made in the 40's ish, but not sure when it would have been first used as a cross sex hormone. So these treatments, while relatively new, are not as new as most people would have you believe. Just because something wasn't openly talked about, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I cannot write openly on this forum about men who dressed as women though.

FlowerCupcake I think this thread centres on pre 20th century mores.

as mentioned above if you look there are many cases of people who lived their whole lives as the opposite gender and were only discovered when they died. People lived lives very much less under the spotlight than they do know and it was possible to move away and literally become a different person.

The tradition of women, whether Lesbian or not, stealing their brothers clothes and escaping cultural oppression by pretending to be boys or young men is an ancient one.

We will never Truely know the intent of these people and if they were what we now consider to be trans in modern terms. Though the people who lived there whole lives like. This were. Likely to have been trans but it is hard to compare with no real treatment up until the 1930s. There are a number of famous trans woman who are recorded in the records though they are usually either down as entertainers or prostitution our history in this country is lost due to its includion in gay culture and the molly Houses where a lot of early trans woman would have found acceptance.

We will never Truely know the intent of these people and if they were what we now consider to be trans in modern terms.
You could try taking their word for it instead of trying to forcibly transition them posthumously.

here is an interesting link on molly houses eastendwomensmuseum.org/blog/miss-muffs-molly-house-in-whitechapel

And one on Mr and Mrs how eastendwomensmuseum.org/blog/2017/6/23/mary-east-aka-james-how-and-mrs-how-of-the-white-horse-poplar

James Miranda Barry is a wonderful example of a woman, living as a man to allow her to become a doctor. A remarkable person, who performed the first successful caesarean in South Africa.

Thanks Jane for the links. The first one I have read before but the second bit I had not I am always interested in the legal records of when we show up in court cases I do like the Princess Seraphina one note the use of pronouns would indicate then being trans and could indicate them being excepted to an extent in the community though as is often seen today as 'that couple'

James Miranda Barry is a total insperation and there life could make a good film

Hi Materialist
Multiple Personality Disorder was a mid diagnosis of and a. Early. Attempt. To understand the effects of trauma on individuals the reclassification to Dissociative Identity Disorder gives a. Clue to this and would now be classed under the umbrella term that is currently used of personally disorder true distinct identities are very rare if as you say they exsist at all. But the effects of trauma are all too comman and the aspects of Dissociative presentation are. I think. What this does show is that the effects of trauma have always existed but our relationship and understanding of them have changed and also our treatment and classification of them. Already the latest terms of personality disorder are being challenged not only by clinicians but by the people themselves who. Are labled as such

What it demonstrated was that the chosen treatment made the disease worse just as it is doing now with gender non conforming children.

While I would not use the word disease to discribe a mental health condition I find that often a specific diagnosis when incorrectly given can hinder treatment. Though when correctly given can help focus clinitions on the aspects of treatment needed. Though I would always advocate that the patent is more than simply there diagnosis of condition and we have to treat them as a whole.

Do you have any thoughts on the above articles bewildernwss

Any disorder is called a disease whether it is a virus or malnutrition. I give away my gardening roots with the use of the term disease, which means no ease. It does not carry the rather odd connotations for some people as it seems to for others. But by all means if it distresses you then do not use the accurate descriptions for things.

"early 14c., "discomfort, inconvenience," from Old French desaise "lack, want; discomfort, distress; trouble, misfortune; disease, sickness," from des- "without, away" (see dis-) + aise "ease" (see ease). Sense of "sickness, illness" in English first recorded late 14c.; the word still sometimes was used in its literal sense early 17c."

While this maybe an exceptable term in gardening it is one that I have never heard used in mental health but it's fine if you want to I would suggest that people with mental health issues would not commanly us it themselves but that's upto them to discuss.

The mingling of gay and trans history is interesting is it not it does show that although the terms have often changed around us and society as been more excepting at times than others that none the less we have always been a part of it. This and the threads on legal histories of gra and cases prior to it often show that rights can come and go. Again though on the whole we do appear to be moving forwards.

'Charles Geneviève Louis Auguste André Timothée d’Éon de Beaumont (1728-1810) — commonly known as the Chevalier d’Éon — is one of the most regularly cited examples of someone crossing gender boundaries before the twentieth century. D’Éon lived publicly as a man for his first forty-nine years, although an androgynous appearance greatly facilitated a 1756 spying mission where he successfully infiltrated the court of the Empress Elizabeth of Russia as a woman.

For the latter thirty-three years of life d’Éon lived permanently as a woman and claimed that she had been assigned this way at birth. Speculation about d’Éon’s physical sex was rife. Bets were placed and the question was only settled by an autopsy following her death.'

This is one of the most interesting stories that most people know

Ignorance is no excuse in the age of the internet.

Here we see media coverage of a trans man in a not so. Positive light

'Harry Allen was a public figure of great renown in the early American West, popping up in pioneer newspapers with frequency throughout the Northwestern U.S. Openly declaring his identity as a man who was assigned female at birth, Allen was a bit of a roustabout, and was often being arrested for petty crimes such as fist fighting, public drunkenness, "throwing a spittoon at a saloon man," and occasional prostitution. The news media was rather unfairly vicious to Allen, reporting with salacious glee on his "shameful" lifestyle, which no doubt contributed to his eventual, tragic suicide at age 40.'

Name change
It would seem that it was rather less common to declare these trans feelings in the past though? And the recent upsurge in cases, although partly caused by the apparently different aetiology of rapid onset, where has this come from? Were there always that many people with these feelings or not?