What happened before hormone treatment and surgery were available?

[TimeLady]

It's just occurred to me that transgender treatment programmes are a relatively recent phenomenon. Homosexuality has long been a natural part of human behaviour as no medical intervention is required. But the whole turning yourself physically into a representation of the opposite sex is relatively new in human terms, and would be impossible without modern medical treatment. You'd simply have people wearing clothes that are perceived as being of the opposite sex.....and nothing wrong with that.

We have no way of knowing hut is still a valid question to ask. There might have been a lot of other people just getting on with there lives there was very little reason to have things recorded officially as there was no. State to do that with the only people who ever. Hear about are the people of note or who are of the upper classes it would be like equating equating the number of. Gay people to a few notable people of the time and saying that's how. Many there were. Also as its been highlighted these things were often illegal and the penalties high again just because someone is unable to express who they are does not make it any less real otherwise we would say there are no lgbt poeple in Some countries. I hope that this thread as shown some people there is no sudden rapid onset of anything but that when society changes then people are more able to be who they are and have always been. The reasons for this are many and varied and everyone as there own paths to deciding to do that and some never do in any way that is noticeable. Societal pressure not to step out the box you were placed in can never be under estimated.

I think you need to be very wary of assigning motive at such a distance historically. Women especially were unable to participate in public life - to dress as a man was freedom. There are several cases of women going to find conscripted husbands/sons in war, wanting to be pirates or barber surgeons or soldiers. These were not open to women.

Simply transing people at a distance is lazy history because you’re applying modern ideology to the past where society was very different. It’s revisionism and it’s pointless.

It’s also fairly insulting to a lot of the women involved - eg the Elizabeth 1st was a bloke theory. It says that women who were strong, intelligent and successful... well they must have been men. And that’s just a bit sexist and shit.

I mean it wasn't that rare... You have the Hijra (mentioned already), but then you also have Two Spirit people of the Native Americans, the Māhū of Hawaii, the Cult of Cybele in Ancient Greece, mukhannathun in Muslim tradition, the Ancient Egyptians had sht as a third gender word, translating to eunuch. Gender non-conformity and trans identities have existed for quite some time. And most of them were eradicated by the white, Christian settlers who colonised countries.

But interesting that there was/is the idea of a third gender, not the current campaign to appropriate womanhood.

thebewilderness
What it demonstrated was that the chosen treatment made the disease worse just as it is doing now with gender non conforming children
Fortunately, all the main professional bodies have now rejected so-called "conversion therapies", and any professional who practices them is likely to be expelled for such unethical behaviour.
Conversion therapies are now almost exclusively the domain of ignorant or pervetted amateurs.

"throwing a spittoon at a saloon man," and occasional prostitution. The news media was rather unfairly vicious to Allen, reporting with salacious glee on his "shameful" lifestyle,

which no doubt contributed to his eventual, tragic suicide at age 40.'

There's some biased reporting.. because I would read the first and the second, and attribute the risk taking behaviour and eventual suicide to the same source, rather than bringing in a new one - makes a lot more sense that someone who damaged themselves with drinking/drugs/fighting/prostitution would eventually go all the way, rather than be happy in their continued damaging of themselves, and be driven to suicide by people saying mean things.