"In six months you can't tell that this person was male"

[Macareaux]

www.westfargopioneer.com/community/people/4462547-i-am-first-full-gender-reassignment-surgery-believed-be-first-north-dakota?amp&__twitter_impression=true

A surgically created vagina will not - to put it bluntly - smell, feel or taste like a real one. A quick perusal of the Reddit fora for experiences of people who have slept with women and transwomen will tell you this.

Resistance
'A surgically created vagina'

Not going to be naturally lubed is it?
Which is why most of them want to keep their special bit of kit.

And don’t most posters here want TW to undergo genital surgery?
No. I don't think anyone should have invasive surgery to "prove" their womanhood. It makes no odds to me what is in their pants.

I don't believe trans women are women. They are trans women. I'm happy to share space as long as I can get creepy perverts removed when needed. My concern is that self ID will stop that happening.

No, I certainly do not want anyone to go through entirely unnecessary cosmetic surgery. I find it mildly horrific to contemplate as an idea, let alone require anyone to do it as a pre-requisite to being supported.

But that's beside the point. Most people think that a transwoman is defined by the fact that they have had their penis removed, and make assumptions about what they should be entitled to do based on that error.

To object to the presence of a penis is not to require it be surgically removed.

"There are these people called opticians, they can often help you with minor problems with your vision by providing the appropriate corrective lenses."

Angryattackkittens

On the flip side, sometimes I see someone and I think in my head 'thank you for being kind enough to let me know exactly who you are', IYKWIM! Maybe someone's myopia performs a useful function for society.

Here's a sharetoken link to The Times piece mentioned upthread if anyone wants it (I didn't finish reading it myself tbh)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/interview-with-jordan-deschamps-braly-transgender-womens-favourite-surgeon-590btqcxp?shareToken=3d68f1ff6d13d8789fbfda24d6030780

Thanks for the link, errol.

Two obs: firstly, didnt they do well to find shoes that size? I had a friend at school who struggled to find nice shoes and she was a size 9. Secondly, the surgery just doesnt work - everything is on a different scale that is immediately obvious.

It's surgery, not magic. I wonder if surgeons are setting realistic expectations, most plastic surgeons don't seem to.

@Norther excellent post at 'Fri 22-Jun-18 19:47:57'

I don't want *anyone to have life changing surgery unless they want it, understand what it will and will not provide and are safe to under go it. But no surgery will make a person change their biological sex. And if people are being told that no one will be able to tell after surgery or whatever, then that is not necessarily true and is very unkind to the person undergoing the procedure.

My husband and I had lots of fertility treatment, the vast majority of it unsuccessful. The doctors were required to point out just what our chances of a successful outcome were.

So with any treatment or surgery, patients should know the reasonable outcomes. I am not against anyone having surgery either. But I am certainly not advocating for people to have it.

@ErrolTheDragon I read that article. Interesting.

What BOO32 said

Also anyone who isn't from the American deep south and uses the word "folk" is talking out of their bottom.

If you're born with a penis and you're an adult you're a man, if you're born without a penis and are an adult you're a woman. Wear a skirt, wear jeans, wear a suit, pick flowers, ride a motorbike, nobody cares.

Have you noticed how mature transtioners always seem to choose names popular in their grandchildren's generation?

jeez, bewilderness.

I have a book I have to start on this.

into the underworld I must go.

Can I leave a lifeline so you can haul me out again and revive me with fresh air and rum

Mature male transitioners TBW? Yes....what's that all about? Anyone would think they have a hankering for the girly culture of bobby sox and kirby-grips thing....

I have rum Picasso!
I'm here...

rum, bum and concertina

www.amazon.co.uk/Rum-Bum-Concertina-George-Melly/dp/0708813976?tag=mumsnetforum-21

AngryAttackKittens
It's surgery, not magic

I can't really understand why they keep pushing this. Surgery doesn't magically change you into a woman. An F on a passport doesn't magically change you into a woman. A GRC doesn't magically change you into a woman. Photoshop, being wolf whistled, no-one speaking up when you're in the female loo - none of it can magically change you into a woman.

I'm not playing semantics games of 'socially woman' or 'legally treated as a woman' or 'internally/mentally/inner-self is a woman'
I had someone try to tell me that hormones cause cell metaplasia and so they do literally become xx. It's unbelievable. Some people are just chucking every blatant lie at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I'm saying no. Not budging an inch. Be a proud Trans person. You can't buy womanhood (or buy your way out of it.)

A little bit of vitriol.

The vast majority of the population of this planet are real where you are. They didn't go anywhere.

There has been a bit of a blind alley diversion for a short time, but we are working our way through this....

Existentialism, the place your brain ends up when your water and your heat and light and your food are all at your fingertips...

Picassospaintbrush

Couldn't agree more.

All Silicon Valley has done is recreate a teenagers bedroom for adult males in apps for perpetuity.

Gender reassignment surgery isn’t cosmetic or reconstructive, but more like reorganization and, someday, could be done as an outpatient procedure, he said.

Really? As an outpatient? I find this difficult to believe. Surely the urethra surgery is major just on its own? I think it must be cosmetic and reconstructive as well.

I missed that part. Sure, put someone through major surgery that takes hours, rearrange their plumbing, and then send them home/back to a hotel immediately afterwards where if anything goes wrong they won't have medical staff and equipment on hand to take care of any complications. What could possibly go wrong?

That surgeon struck me as a bit Frankenstein like, all about his own ego. Sad that such skill (although I thought a lot of the work featured looked more like creating faces like dolls than female or even feminine faces) seems to be so rarely used for anything actually useful. Still I guess his facial feminisation work pays for his lifestyle in a way that facial reconstruction for children with congenital abnormalities would not.

Granted that I have a particularly strong case of the uncanny valley effect being disturbing to me, but I feel like the fact that the surgeon is charging that kind of money for those results is outrageous, especially given that he keeps banging on about his superior sense of aesthetics.