Those suicide statistics

[Macareaux]

Barely a single article on transgenderism, particularly where young people are concerned, fails to mention rates of suicide attempts often in the 40% to 50% range. There has been a lot discussed about how the stats were obtained and the questionable methodology of such surveys, but isn't there a bigger question here? I'm trying to tread lightly because obviously it's a hugely sensitive subject. However it would appear that the number of completed suicides is extremely low, thankfully, which begs the question of what counts as a suicide attempt when recording statistics? Surely a suicide attempt would at least end you up in hospital and there must be reliable records of this.

Given the known risks of contagion and the fact that the fear of a dead child seems to be a major influence (unsurprisingly) in parents going along with allowing a child to transition, doesn't this subject need a much wider and more rigorous investigation?

Also how trans activists and LGBT organisations can quote such rates and at the same time argue that being trans is not a mental illness is beyond me.

zero-tolerance approach to transphobia

and trolling plus misogyny as well

I don't think you'll find many people on MN who think that people with mental health issues shouldn't get help.

Although the site welcomes all sorts of people, many are mums, and the stats for ante / peri natal depression are around 10-15%.

Also - clearly - a lot of the conversations on here are driven by mums - parents - questioning the party line about trans issues. For feminists in particular the lack of connection between girls being the biggest growing group for being trans, and girls being the biggest grwoing group for self harm and suicide, and the connections between growing up in a society where girls are sexualised and objectified from puberty (which is getting ever younger), sexual abuse, and the steps that girls have taken in the past to try and hide their developing bodies.

To discard all these conversations - to dismiss and not even look into the possibilties that this distress is coming from other sources and transing is a symptom not a cure - it's irresponsible.

The need for people with suicidal thoughts to get help and support is one of the (very many) reasons why I oppose self-ID. At the moment an individual has to engage with a doctor in order to get a GRC, which offers the potential for medical support in dealing with mental health concerns. Self-ID only takes all of that away, apart from those who are mature enough to realise that there is a medical issue that needs to be tackled

Good post OP. It defies belief that individuals and organisations repeatedly defy the Samaritan's guidelines. It involves such an extreme level of self-interest and arrogance to ignore the Samaritan's advice - which of course is grounded in decades of experience and knowledge. But I suppose those that play fast and loose with safeguarding guidelines for children are not in the slightest bit bothered about replicating this with suicide risks.

Snappity is making me think of the Echo/alexa devices that tell you what the internet says if you ask it. Only no-one is asking, it's just picking up random words and malfunctioning.

The need for people with suicidal thoughts to get help and support is one of the (very many) reasons why I oppose self-ID. At the moment an individual has to engage with a doctor in order to get a GRC, which offers the potential for medical support in dealing with mental health concerns

Yes absolutely this. Vulnerable young people will only be more vulnerable if they never see a doctor about the internal conflict they're enduring. Self-id puts kids at risk.

The way I see it is that not all trans people are actually trans and the actual number of people being born in the wrong body is tiny.

I just wanted to pick up on this. No one is born in the wrong body. It is impossible. There is no such thing as a soul. If there was, I would be arguing very strongly that I was born in the wrong body given that I have massive physical limitations I'm desperate to cast off. We are what we are.

The situation in fact is more there are a tiny number of people with true gender dysphoria when you look at everyone who describes themselves as trans.

References snappity?

Study after study has shown a very high suicide risk in trans people, in multiple countries and across decades. Denying the wall of evidence is like denying climate change.

Is analysing and unpicking something the same as denying it? Science should be criticised. Good science welcomes debate. There are rising numbers of girls who suffer gender dysphoria and it's crucial to ask if the statistics are misleading or incorrect.

Study after study has shown a very high suicide risk in trans people, in multiple countries and across decades. Denying the wall of evidence is like denying climate change

Provide links to that evidence. That's all we're asking for. If there are properly conducted, unbiased and impartial studies that demonstrate this then it would be helpful to know about them.

Nobody is denying that some children experience gender dysphoria. But to blindly accept a child telling you that they want to transition, and supporting them with hormone therapy which has permanent and irreversible effects, is the absolute definition of being irresponsible. Children don't know what lies on the other side of puberty. The teen years are a normal time of changes and questioning and experimentation. How many posters here are the same people they were at 14, or 15, or 16 - with the same ideals, passions, hopes and fears?

If a child presents with what looks to be genuine gender dysphoria then it is absolutely right that they should be heard and supported. But the current group-think of saying that not instantly accepting a child's opinion if they decide they are trans, will result in suicide, is blatant scare-mongering.

I cannot think of any other circumstance where a child would be given such authority over significant and permanently life changing decisions like this. For every child that genuinely needs support because they are dysphoric, how many are being sent down the transition path where if they'd been left alone they would have turned into gay men or lesbian women? Or "ungirly" women or "feminine" men?

And lo and behold the original question asked about "self harm or suicide attempt", making no attempt to separate the two. However, while the survey authors left the reference to self-harm in the chart, their own summary dropped self-harm and reported this figure as relating only to suicide attempts.

And from that point forwards, that is how it was used - a 34% suicide attempt rate even though the 34% refers to both suicide attempts and self-harm.

Good spot. That is really shitty science.

GenderGP / Dr Helen Webberley
blog
(extract)
"As a result of this, the dysphoria (mental anguish, often as a result of frustration with society and the medical profession) can be hugely impactful, with mental illness, suicide and depression being a very serious problem. Some studies have suggested that up to 65% of young transgender people have attempted or considered suicide as a result."

gendergp.co.uk/treating-transgender-children/

Webberly thinks dysphoria is a result of frustration with society and the medical profession???

Helen Webberley will say any old cobblers that suits Helen Webberley.

At least she's found her people.

I noticed that she was recently part of the #transtakeover of Neville Southall's account:

[[https://twitter.com/MyWebDoctorUK/status/1009496763345104896]]

twitter.com/MyWebDoctorUK/status/1009496763345104896

Snappity Fri 22-Jun-18 12:50:26 Study after study has shown a very high suicide risk in trans people, in multiple countries and across decades. Denying the wall of evidence is like denying climate change.

When you call a survey a study and conflate self harm with suicide to inflate you statistics you lose all credibility.

Men reported the highest incident of DV, until the men were asked to take a polygraph and suddenly they decided that being told no might not qualify as a violence.
I do not mention this to dismiss male on male violence but only to point out that self report surveys of people with a high rate of disordered thinking give bad results.

You know as it's late I will say something controversial.

My family has dealt with an actual suicide attempt, one which was only thwarted by an incredible fluke. 15 years later we don't tiptoe around that person, despite ongoing MH.

And you know, other people very close to me have talked about thinking of this. It is a very human thing.

I am very committed to "going to Zurich" should my life take that direction, as I am sure many people here are.

Intelligent conversations which are not so drama filled about this subject are essential.

I wonder what the surveys would show if it considered that, for some people, physically transitioning was a way of self-harming?

You would not be the first person by a long shot.
Germaine Greer said:

“I do understand that some people are born intersex and they deserve support in coming to terms with their gender but it’s not the same thing. A man who gets his d**k chopped off is actually inflicting an extraordinary act of violence on himself.”