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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Those suicide statistics

70 replies

Macareaux · 22/06/2018 07:18

Barely a single article on transgenderism, particularly where young people are concerned, fails to mention rates of suicide attempts often in the 40% to 50% range. There has been a lot discussed about how the stats were obtained and the questionable methodology of such surveys, but isn't there a bigger question here? I'm trying to tread lightly because obviously it's a hugely sensitive subject. However it would appear that the number of completed suicides is extremely low, thankfully, which begs the question of what counts as a suicide attempt when recording statistics? Surely a suicide attempt would at least end you up in hospital and there must be reliable records of this.

Given the known risks of contagion and the fact that the fear of a dead child seems to be a major influence (unsurprisingly) in parents going along with allowing a child to transition, doesn't this subject need a much wider and more rigorous investigation?

Also how trans activists and LGBT organisations can quote such rates and at the same time argue that being trans is not a mental illness is beyond me.

OP posts:
A4710Rider · 22/06/2018 12:15

The way I see it is that not all trans people are actually trans and the actual number of people being born in the wrong body is tiny.

Being trans is a call for help, a call for attention.

Serfisafleur · 22/06/2018 12:23

Being trans is a call for help, a call for attention

YYY!

A4710Rider · 22/06/2018 12:25

That's my opinion.

NotBadConsidering · 22/06/2018 12:25

This study showed the very act of being on Tumblr is associated with increased depression and low self- esteem:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29370275/

It's also worth noting that the vast majority, 75% of those self-presenting in the study are those assigned female at birth. It's those assigned female at birth who have significant mental health issues. But we don't seem to hear about those people as much...

NotBadConsidering · 22/06/2018 12:29

In the Australian study I linked earlier I mean. Teenage girls on social media, struggling with gender identity have high rates of mental health issues. But somehow that becomes "transwomen are at high risk of suicide". The teenage girls get forgotten in all this.

FloralBunting · 22/06/2018 12:38

I think it is the most despicable abusive thing I can conceive to use these bare faced lies and the horror of suicide to manipulate children and parents. To see the usual suspects arrive on this thread and use the same twisted tactics brings up a bile in my throat.

SardineReturns · 22/06/2018 12:47

So it toes across the piece around a mental health crisis with girls

That needs addressing generally and not cut down into trans/ contraception/ sexual abuse/ misogynist society / beauty standards etc as girls experience lots of different stuff.

For boys the situation is different, different triggers concerns etc with some overlap I'm sure. So that needs looking at,

One final note that changing/ removing the categorisation of girl/ boy will make stats meaningless and we will less able to see trends etc at least by sex. Is it worth losing this?

Snappity · 22/06/2018 12:50

Study after study has shown a very high suicide risk in trans people, in multiple countries and across decades. Denying the wall of evidence is like denying climate change.

nauticant · 22/06/2018 12:55

Is that because they are trans or is that because they have comorbid mental health conditions? And would that be out of proportion with other young people having comorbid mental health conditions?

DodoPatrol · 22/06/2018 13:09

Why is there now a huge suicide risk for trans people, if trans people have always been [pick a %] of the population?

Has this increased or decreased with greater acknowledgement of trans as a phenomenon? Does it increase or decrease, long term, on transition?

How do the stats look if you remove confounding factors?

Is it better for mental health to acknowledge that one remains the birth sex but presents as the opposite (as I believe Truscum, Miranda, Hobbit and some others who post here have said) or to deny this?

Could the risk be reduced by accepting one's trans nature and asking others to accept that too, rather than setting oneself against the world?

Don't just make it everyone else's fault for not believing the same as you.

BeyondSceptical · 22/06/2018 13:21

www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/05/autismsuiciderates/

"66% of adults newly diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome (AS) reported having contemplated suicide"

nauticant · 22/06/2018 13:25

The whole point about the suicide statistics isn't to shout "look how big!", it's to ask "but what does this actually mean?".

Shouting though is often much more satisfying than keeping quiet and doing difficult researching/thinking.

Snappity · 22/06/2018 13:29

"The whole point about the suicide statistics isn't to shout "look how big!", it's to ask "but what does this actually mean?"."

Very much agree which is why allowing trans people to take their place in society according self-ID is critically important

nauticant · 22/06/2018 13:36

Why do you think changing the law in the UK to recognise self-ID will lead to a reduction in the number of trans people in the UK attempting or committing suicide?

And why would it be more effective than any other measures?

Is your view based on anything concrete?

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 13:39

One problem with getting accurate statistics is that the trans umbrella is now so wide that even most of us come under it (people with no gender).

This Swedish study is a reference that doctors on the ‘watch and wait’ side of the spectrum often site - the study shows that full surgical transition makes trans people even more prone to suicide :/

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Anecdotal - a transwoman in a online women’s social group I frequent has recently had bottom surgery after presenting as a woman full time for some years. She is really struggling to come to terms with it, having had a hard time healing and gaining quite a bit of weight due to being less active/struggling to get hormones rebalanced post op and a bit of comfort eating to boot.

She feels very strongly that she was happier and healthier before the reassignment surgery, when she had just hormone therapy and breast implants. She’s feeling very low.

In fact, having read that study, I think I might check in with her via PM, just to reach out.

AncientLights · 22/06/2018 13:57

Betty there's always a danger of seeing a big goal in one's life as being positively transformative. As in 'when I'm like (insert goal) life will be perfect.' This happens after bariatric surgery too, you go through all that but then ... life still isn't what you hoped for. I do hope your friend is ok. Flowers

SporadicSpartacus · 22/06/2018 14:01

That’s a kind thing to do, Betty. Hope friend is okay & sure she’ll appreciate you reaching out.

SardineReturns · 22/06/2018 14:02

Having "bottom" surgery is a massive massive deal and I'm not surprised so many trans people give it a swerve. The side effects around such invasive surgery, removal of healthy body parts, scarring, possibel long term pain, infection and I dread to think where it leaves sexual feeling / function.

Having this should not be a "gateway" to anything, nothing should be "on condition" of surgery like this.

Having said that, my position (which has hardened in recent months / years) is that you really can't change sex and there's nothing you can do about that, not surgery not hormones not nothing.

I think names presentation whatever I mean that's all fine obviously, women have been against constraining gender roles forever.

However accessing things meant for the female sex is just a no no. Thing is the more that is given the more we are pushed. I don't see an end to it until all mentions / stats / anything to do with the female sex (girls / women) is verboten.

SardineReturns · 22/06/2018 14:03

sorry women have been against constraining gender roles >> feminists but actually it's most women really. Few women are OK with being told they must / mustn't do this that the other because of their cunts.

Mogleflop · 22/06/2018 14:07

Wakame, don't confuse horror at people manipulating kids with being horrible about the kids. (Or adults). That's completely bonkers logic!

SoddingUnicorns · 22/06/2018 14:09

What really upsets me is the information about certain trans activists deliberately targeted already vulnerable teens/children and convincing them that they’re trans and that’s why they feel the way they do. Autistic children in particular, which is why I’m so angry.

This guilt trip bullshit needs to stop.

Mossandclover · 22/06/2018 17:57

snappity I am so glad you are on here as I keep asking for links to peer reviewed studies of actually suicide robustly analysed for confounding factors such as comorbidities but so far no one has provided any references. As you know so much evidence on this it will be no trouble for you to link some on here?

CharlieParley · 22/06/2018 18:05

I am interested in another area where a lot of research is done and many papers published and then a lot of spin put on results, so I've learned to always look at the actual data sets and results.

That this is not freely available in the Australian Trans-pathways report is of concern. It doesn't mean that their results aren't valid, but it does not allow independent scrutiny of claimed results and conclusions - it's simply not best practice.

I pursued this with another report, from the UK, that claimed a 34% suicide attempt rate:

-found the footnote relating to the report where they got that number from
-followed the relevant footnote from that report to the original study.

And lo and behold the original question asked about "self harm or suicide attempt", making no attempt to separate the two. However, while the survey authors left the reference to self-harm in the chart, their own summary dropped self-harm and reported this figure as relating only to suicide attempts.

And from that point forwards, that is how it was used - a 34% suicide attempt rate even though the 34% refers to both suicide attempts and self-harm.

So back to this Australian report.

It claims that the suicide attempts are caused by rejection and transphobia. However, we do know from a large body of medical research that the co-morbidity of mental health issues and gender dysphoria is very high and that many of these issues predate their gender dysphoria.

IIRC, 80% or so of transsexuals have co-existing MH issues. For them, depression which then leads to suicide ideation, is in the whole caused by having GD and other pre- or co-existing issues. Indeed many are depressed long before they even come out as trans and would face rejection or transphobia and some even long before they develop gender dysphoria.

But the report just states these things as fact, even though the footnotes lead to studies drawing far more nuanced conclusions and/or concentrate on the entire LGBT community and/or once again make claims not fully supported in the data.

One of these footnotes referred to an Australian study that looked at LGBT people who had committed suicide. It found 38 over a 9 year period, only one of which was trans. A sample size of one deceased individual who could obviously not be interviewed as to the reasons for their depression is simply too small to draw any kind of conclusions.

Another footnote referred to the largest trans mental health survey of adults ever undertaken in Australia. (It was self-selected and based on self-identifying as trans.)

This study didn't even ask about suicide ideation or attempts directly, but concluded nonetheless that because so many trans people were depressed, they must be at an extremely high risk for suicide.

So, 57% were diagnosed with depression (an incredibly high number) and 40% reported self-harming or having suicidal thoughts (again a very high number). Best practice in research is to follow up these responses with actual interviews where researchers typically find that only half of those who claim to have attempted suicide have actually done so. Of course, it's impossible to extrapolate a percentage for suicide attempts, but it has to be a fraction of that 40%.

Whatever that number is, it does not support the Trans-pathways one, which is much much higher (3 in 4 diagnosed with depression, 1 in 2 attempted suicide). This may be explained by the fact that while the former, adult only survey, had 60% male participants, the youth study had 75% female participants. And we do know, again from decades of medical research, that female adolescents have higher rates of suicide ideation.

So, it's far more complicated and nuanced a picture than they present - one which needs looking at much closer and in more detail. But they keep on making these black and white claims about "all trans people" anyway even when it may be an issue affecting females more than males and for reasons other than rejection/transphobia.

Snappity · 22/06/2018 18:43

"However, we do know from a large body of medical research that the co-morbidity of mental health issues and gender dysphoria is very high and that many of these issues predate their gender dysphoria. "

I am so pleased you recognise that. It is why we need a zero-tolerance approach to transphobia and misgendering on sites like Mumsnet